Decommissioning

HC Deb 30 June 1999 vol 334 cc327-31

2. Mr. Andrew Robathan (Blaby)

If she will make a statement on progress towards decommissioning illegal weapons under the Good Friday agreement. [87716]

The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr. Adam Ingram)

The British and Irish Governments are clear that decommissioning is an important and fundamental element of the Good Friday agreement. The current talks in Belfast are designed to implement the agreement in all its aspects. Decommissioning is not a precondition but an obligation under the agreement. The two Governments are due to consider a report from the Independent Commission on Decommissioning. We are optimistic that progress can be made if all parties are prepared to move together.

Mr. Robathan

The IRA has stated publicly several times that it is not prepared to give up its weapons, yet the Minister and the Secretary of State continue to press for the inclusion of Sinn Fein in the Northern Ireland Executive. Sinn Fein is inextricably linked to the IRA—it is one and the same as the IRA. Does the Minister genuinely believe that the IRA is operating a ceasefire? If so, who does he think murdered Paul Downey in Newry earlier this month, Eamon Collins or Brendan Fegan, or attempted to murder Martin McGartland? I trust that the Minister will not give the House some wittering, weasel words about evidence. Has the Chief Constable advised the Government that those murders were carried out by the IRA? Has he advised the Government that the IRA continues with its terrorist activities?

Mr Ingram

The original question was about the decommissioning of illegal weapons and, of course, such weapons are held by more than one terrorist or paramilitary group. In relation to the hon. Gentleman's specific points, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I receive security briefings; indeed, yesterday, we received a long briefing from the Chief Constable. The best suggestion that I can offer to the hon. Gentleman is that he read the transcript of the Chief Constable's comments when he launched his annual report today. The Chief Constable gives advice and we assess the information given to us by him and by other security sources. As far as we are concerned, the ceasefires remain intact. That is why the talks are going on at present. If the hon. Gentleman argues, on behalf of his party, that talks should cease, let him say that.

Dr. Norman A. Godman (Greenock and Inverclyde)

Every sane person in Northern Ireland wants decommissioning to take place so that the Executive and the Assembly can get down to work. I need hardly remind my right hon. Friend that we are within 24 hours of the formal opening of the Scottish Parliament and of the Welsh Assembly. The people of Northern Ireland want the same for their Assembly. When is General John de Chastelain due to make his report? Is it not true that the obligation on decommissioning has to be met by May next year?

Mr. Ingram

The report of the independent commission is a matter for the members of the commission. We understand that they have compiled an assessment of the various responses, and that the report is due to be given to the two Governments today; I cannot give my hon. Friend a precise time. The document will be important; it will be the best assessment from an independent body that was set up to deal specifically with that issue.

Mr. William Ross (East Londonderry)

If the Government really believe that keeping Sinn Fein out of the Executive now would cause violence because it has not given up its weapons, how on earth is violence to be avoided when Sinn Fein is thrown out next May because it has given up no weapons in the interval?

Mr. Ingram

The hon. Gentleman has not been a supporter of the Good Friday agreement; he is now predicting the failure of the peace discussions—I hope that he is not wishing for that. As I have said to Opposition Members in the House, in Committee and elsewhere, they would do well to listen to what the majority of people of Northern Ireland want, and, hopefully, to reflect on that. They could then use all their efforts to bring about a peaceful resolution to the past 30 years of trouble and strife, imposed on Northern Ireland from too many quarters; that should become a thing of the past.

Ms Margaret Moran (Luton, South)

Will my right hon. Friend pass the thanks of the majority of Members of the House to General John de Chastelain and his independent commission for the long and difficult work that they are doing in tackling the real issues of decommissioning? Will he please try to elicit exactly what the Opposition propose on decommissioning? How do they expect decommissioning to occur without the implementation of all parts of the Northern Ireland agreement in tandem?

Mr. Ingram

With regard to the second part of my hon. Friend's question, we have enough on our plate without trying to elicit what is in the mind of the Opposition on that matter, or trying to read how it has been tackled over recent months. The process is difficult enough without that. As for the first part of my hon. Friend's question, I am only too happy to report those strong messages of support for the good work already carried out by General John de Chastelain and the other two commissioners, and for the work on which they are currently engaged.

Mr. Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire)

As anyone who follows these matters knows, decommissioning is not a precondition of where we stand today, although obviously it must be a commitment. Therefore, aside from the fancy rhetoric, will the Minister answer as honestly and candidly as he can? How likely is it that we can make progress today in the important talks taking place in Northern Ireland on the crucial question of decommissioning in its symbolic context, as well as on the other sticking points? Can he really hope for the Northern Ireland Assembly to take up its full responsibilities, together with the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly?

Mr. Ingram

The one thing that we can say with certainty is that all parties to the current round of talks want to see that Assembly up and running. They know that the two fundamentals that will take that forward—decommissioning and the establishment of the Executive—are critical to that. Those talks are taking place as I answer the hon. Gentleman's question at the Dispatch Box. We hope that good progress is being made and that every effort will be made by the two Prime Ministers and by those who are participating in the talks to resolve the issue and the other fundamentals, which will allow the Parliament to be up and running and to go forward from there.

Dr. Desmond Turner (Brighton, Kemptown)

I am sure that my right hon. and hon. Friends are well aware of the tremendous support on the Government Benches for the full implementation of the Good Friday agreement. Will they take a relatively simple message to both sides? The first is that the agreement cannot be rewritten, but, at the same time, it does need to be said to those who have contact with those holding illegal arms that it is difficult to take democratic decisions when behind them is the threat of the use of those illegal arms. If both sides could move, I am sure that almost all Labour Members certainly would want to see the agreement implemented in full.

Mr. Ingram

Those are the very sentiments that are at work within those around the negotiating tables in Northern Ireland, but, more so, they reflect the overwhelming wish of the people of Northern Ireland. I shall take those points back to those engaged in the process.

Mr. Andrew MacKay (Bracknell)

We very much hope that a lasting agreement will be reached today, not least because of the innocent, law-abiding majority of people in Northern Ireland from both communities who have suffered too much in the past 30 years of troubles. Will the Minister confirm that there is only one real stumbling block, and that is the non-decommissioning of illegally held arms and explosives by the paramilitaries, both loyalist and republican? The two Governments have fulfilled all their obligations under the agreement, the constitutional parties, Unionists and nationalists, have done the same, but the paramilitaries have been all take and no give.

Mr. Ingram

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his good wishes to those involved in the negotiations. Clearly, the Good Friday agreement must be implemented in full in all its parts. That includes decommissioning. We have made that clear from the Dispatch Box time and time again. It also includes the establishment of the Executive and the implementation of all the other obligations that are placed upon the two Governments. When agreement can be obtained, we will have dealt with the two fundamental issues of the establishment of the Executive and the decommissioning of weapons.

Mr. MacKay

Will the Minister accept that we cannot be confident that the IRA will decommission its illegally held arms and explosives when, only last week, the Irish police arrested two terrorists in Donegal who were carrying explosives for bombing in Northern Ireland, who both wore Sinn Fein green ribbons when they appeared in court and who have both been admitted into the Provisional IRA wing of Portlaoise prison?

Mr. Ingram

I thought that the right hon. Gentleman wanted us to proceed with the Good Friday agreement. Two people have been arrested in the Republic of Ireland for crimes within that jurisdiction. That will be a matter for its courts. We have information on the background to that as it may have applied within Northern Ireland. As I have said before, we do not share intelligence over the Dispatch Box. I wish that the right hon. Gentleman had listened to the reply that I gave to the hon. Member for Blaby (Mr. Robathan) about the way in which the judgment has been made and what the Chief Constable says about the current state of the ceasefire. He and the Secretary of State are both agreed on the stability of that ceasefire at the present time.