Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty

HC Deb 30 June 1999 vol 334 cc281-303

11 am

Mr. Martin Caton (Gower)

In 1949, a Labour Government gave us the National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act, which established national parks with the twin purposes of promoting their conservation and public enjoyment. It also established areas of outstanding natural beauty, where the objective was landscape conservation. I hope that today's debate—50 years after passage of the legislation—will allow us to celebrate our designated areas of outstanding natural beauty in England and Wales. I also hope, however, that we will not be afraid to focus on the weaknesses that have been exposed in the legislation over the past half century, or to consider how, in the years ahead, we might improve the protection of some of our most precious landscapes and habitats.

The designation "area of outstanding natural beauty" was created by section 87 of the 1949 Act. The first thing that we can celebrate is the very fact that that Government, in that legislation, recognised the need to maintain our most beautiful countryside as places in which to work, to live and to play while protecting its special qualities.

We can still, 50 years later, rejoice in the title of areas of outstanding natural beauty, as it tells us what we are talking about: some of the finest landscape and most environmentally important countryside in the whole of England and Wales. Although we might quibble about whether the countryside that we are talking about is truly natural, for most people the title communicates very well what we are trying to say, and does so far better than titles such as national park, nature reserve, site of special scientific interest, special area for conservation or special protection areas.

Unfortunately, it could also be argued that creating the title AONB was almost all the legislation did. The legislation called for designation of parts of our countryside as outstanding, and, in the title, explained why they should be so designated. To be fair, I should add that the Act also made provision for land-use planning arrangements, which, although possibly imperfect, have helped enormously in protecting those special places.

The Act did not provide for the administration of AONBs. It said that they should exist and why, but did not say anything about how—how they were to be managed—or about who was to manage them or to finance that management. That contrasts with the situation of national parks, which were created in the same legislation. Questions of who and how in relation to national parks were answered fairly clearly in the 1949 Act, and were further dealt with in the Environment Act 1995.

The failure to make provision for positive management of AONBs was not an error, but was a result of the thinking of that time—particularly in the Hobhouse committee's 1947 report, which led to the legislation and which stated: There are many areas of fine country in England and Wales which are not included in our selection of national parks but yet possess outstanding landscape beauty, are often of great scientific interest and in many cases include important holiday areas. While in the main they do not call for the degree of positive management required in National Parks…their contribution to the wider enjoyment of the countryside is so important that special measures should be taken to preserve their natural beauty and interest. We recommend, therefore, that the Minister of Town and Country Planning should designate areas of high landscape quality, scientific interest and recreational value as Conservation Areas. In the 1949 Act, those conservation areas became AONBs. I suspect that, even then, the belief that those areas did not require positive management was mistaken. Consequently, the need for such management has become ever clearer.

Perhaps, 50 years after passage of the Act, the most remarkable feature of our AONBs is how much has been built on such a flimsy foundation. I hope that colleagues on both sides of the House who represent constituencies that include AONBs, or parts of them, will take this opportunity to talk about what is happening—for good or ill—on their patch, to help Ministers as they assess the best way forward for landscape protection in those very special areas.

I should like—to set the ball rolling—to talk briefly about the AONB in my own constituency of Gower, to demonstrate not only some real achievements but some failings that were partly caused by the omission in the 1949 Act.

The fact is that the Gower peninsula itself set the ball rolling. In 1956, it became our first designated area of outstanding natural beauty, in recognition of the national importance of its landscape, particularly its coastal landscape, and its wildlife and clear historical identity. It began the process of AONB recognition across England and Wales.

For many years before designation, Gower had, quite rightly, been appreciated for its special qualities. Its complex geology produces a wide range of scenery in a comparatively small area. It ranges from the south coast's superb limestone cliffs and broad sandy beaches, to the salt marshes and sand dune systems in the north. Inland, large areas of common land—dominated by sandstone heath ridges—are a feature, and its rich natural environment of heath, grassland, fresh and salt water marsh, dunes and oak woodland were nationally renowned even before the war. That was reflected, from 1933 onwards, in a number of early acquisitions by the National Trust.

Nevertheless, it took some intense lobbying before, on 9 May 1956, L. Strang, chairman of the National Parks Commission, and his secretary, Harold Abrahams, signed the designation order. The designation has been a matter of pride for Gower residents ever since. However, even in 1956, Gower people were worried about the availability of resources, after designation, for maintenance and improvement of the environment in their area.

At the time, the then National Parks Commission proposed an extensive series of grants for landscape management. The proposal, however, was never implemented, so that the burden of providing resources for conservation of that nationally important area has fallen on local authorities, sometimes with the help of partner agencies. In fact, the nearest that we have come to putting into practice the National Parks Commission's 1956 idea occurred in the 1990s, under the Tir Cymen agri-environment scheme, in which Gower was a pilot area. The scheme enabled some very valuable environmental improvement work and enthused our local farmers. I hope that the scheme's replacement, Tir Gofal, will build on the earlier experiment's achievements.

Since 1956, it has been mostly up to local councils to try to protect the Gower AONB as best they could. However, with no statutory requirement for positive management, the record has been patchy. For example, in the 1960s, an AONB warden was appointed to implement small-scale projects and to patrol the area, but to do so without an overall strategic plan. When the warden retired in the early 1970s, his post lapsed.

Similarly, in 1973, when the importance of Gower's unspoilt coastline was recognised by its designation as a heritage coast, a heritage coast warden was appointed by the city council, and several initiatives on various degraded sand dune systems were implemented. However, there was no heritage coast management plan, and no links to wider AONB work. When the heritage warden retired, he, too, was not replaced. Time was lost, and, with it, stone walls, traditional boundary hedges, stone-faced banks, old barns and goodness knows what coastal and inland wildlife habitats also were lost.

Only in the 1990s, with publication of the Gower management plan and appointment of AONB staff, did conservation really move forward. Now, we have integration and co-ordination of the work of the agencies involved in countryside management in the AONB. However, a real threat is still posed by the absence of core funding and statutory responsibility. Gower AONB' s long-term protection is still by no means guaranteed.

I believe that the situation at the Gower AONB is similar to that of AONBs across the country. There are now 36 areas of outstanding natural beauty in England, and four such areas in Wales. Additionally, a large part of the Wye valley AONB is in England, with a smaller part of it in Wales.

All 41 AONBs, with our national parks, represent the finest landscapes in our country and are an absolutely vital part of our national heritage. They range from the Solway coast to the north Wessex downs; from the Norfolk coast to the Cotswolds; from the Cornish coast to the Clwydian range. Their beauty is matched only by their wonderful variety.

As I have mentioned national parks, I should affirm that AONBs are not second-class national parks, but are equal in quality. They are distinguished from the latter in the legislation on the basis of access for extensive outdoor recreation, not on the basis of beauty or ecology. However, although AONBs are equal in beauty and environmental quality, they are not equal in treatment.

National parks have authorities to manage their protection and public enjoyment. They also enjoy a high profile and guaranteed funding, which is not true of AONBs. Although AONBs often have to deal with national-park scale problems, they do so without resources that are anywhere close to those available to national parks. For instance, the Cotswolds, at 2,038 sq km, is much larger than the national parks, and the Chilterns, with 52 million day visitors a year, receives more visitors than most national parks in any year. Can it be right that the law fails to provide that those special areas must be managed to protect them, fails to identify anyone to do the job, and fails to provide for resourcing the work?

Even now, when, thanks to local initiative, a lot of good work is being done, 13 of the 37 AONBs in England have no management plan in place. Some have not appointed an AONB officer, or set up a joint advisory committee. With no statutory requirement and no long-term funding, that is hardly surprising. As an aside, I should tell the House that we in Wales do not even have the benefit of additional financial resources directed to the English AONBs as an interim measure.

The Countryside Agency submitted advice to the Government on the future of AONBs last June. The Countryside Council for Wales followed, with a similar submission to the Welsh Office in January. Both organisations expressed concern about the increasing pressures of modern society on our vulnerable high-quality country areas, and about the threat from changing farming economies to our treasured landscapes.

The Countryside Agency made specific recommendations to ensure effective management, adequate financial provision and improved development controls in our AONBs. It calls on the Government to give a lead in their planning decisions to demonstrate the very high degree of protection that AONBs should enjoy. It calls for a statutory obligation on all public bodies to have regard to the need to enhance the natural beauty of AONBs. It calls for highway authorities and the Highways Agency to act on their duty to have regard to the purposes of the designation of protected countryside, and suggests the use of transport policy and programmes to channel funds into schemes that protect our finest countryside.

The agency argues that agri-environment schemes should cover all farm land in national parks and AONBs. It calls for Government funds to cover the costs of management services for visitors and recreation in designated areas, and suggests that this funding be supplemented by lottery and European Union finance. It calls for local authorities to be statutorily required to pursue the objective for which AONBs were designated, and to produce AONB management plans.

The agency argues that local authorities, when they so wish, should be able to constitute conservation boards, with—as a minimum—consultee rights on planning matters, recreation and agricultural policies in their AONB. It calls for Government funding of the core costs of managing AONBs through a 50 per cent. grant. As a matter of interest, the Countryside Council for Wales argues that the grant should be 75 per cent., to give parity with national parks. Finally, the advice calls for Government finance for an AONB fund for special projects.

I know that the Government are considering the Countryside Agency's advice, but they have been doing so for 12 months now. At different times since last June, we have been told that the Government would respond soon, and then very soon. When my hon. Friend the Minister winds up, I hope that he might be able to be rather more specific as to when we can expect that response. However, if he could manage a phrase such as "very, very soon", or "very, very soon indeed", I would regard that as at least a step in the right direction.

Sir Geoffrey Johnson Smith (Wealden)

I do not want to make a speech and intrude on the time available to the hon. Gentleman, as, unfortunately, another engagement means that I cannot stay for the rest of the debate. However, on this specific point, may I say how much I welcome what he has said? The Sussex downs conservation board is seeking increased powers along the lines suggested by the hon. Gentleman. My constituency contains an AONB, and the Sussex downs can be seen in the distance. What the hon. Gentleman has said should command wide support in the House, and I hope that a favourable response from the Government will not be too long in coming.

Mr. Caton

I thank the right hon. Member for that intervention, which fits nicely with what I have to say. I was about to refer to the private Member's Bill, the Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty Bill, being introduced by Lord Renton of Mount Harry in the other place. Lord Renton is the chairman of the conservation board mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman, and that board is setting a good example for a possible way forward.

I know that I am not allowed to request legislation in this debate, and I do not intend to do so, but I have read the Hansard report of the Second Reading debate on Lord Renton's Bill in the other place. It was quite a literary debate, with quotes from John Keats, Rudyard Kipling, A. P. Herbert and even Bill Bryson, and it helped to clarify the matters that need to be addressed. It identified some key questions, which I shall list and to which I hope my hon. Friend the Minister will respond.

Are we going to be able to conserve our AONBs in the future without placing a statutory duty on local authorities? How can we make sure that all public bodies recognise and respond to the AONB designation in carrying out their functions in these areas? How do we ensure that every AONB in the country is positively managed, so that these landscapes and habitats can be properly protected in the face of increasing pressures?

How do we resource that management and the special enhancement and conservation projects that will come out of it? How do we ensure a cohesive approach to AONB management, when the AONB in question straddles two or more local authority areas? Can we justify the differences in levels of protection offered to AONBs as compared with national parks, when we know that they are equal in terms of landscape quality?

On Monday, my right hon. Friends the Deputy Prime Minister and the Minister for the Environment launched the new Countryside Agency. Quite rightly, the former pointed to the actions that this Government have already taken to improve the quality of life in our rural areas and to protect our environment. He stressed his determination to do more.

I know that the Minister is committed to the cause of conservation and, especially, to the protection of our finest landscapes. I hope that he will be able to address the questions that I have just asked, and outline Government thinking about protecting that invaluable resource—the 16 per cent. of our country designated as being of outstanding natural beauty.

The AONB designation applies nationally. Its purpose is to conserve the most important landscape heritage of the nation for the benefit of this and future generations. It is about long-term stewardship for the conservation of natural beauty, and it includes the protection of flora and fauna. Geological features, as well as important features of the landscape, archaeology and history, are also covered. When AONBs are working at their best, these national objectives are achieved through partnership with local communities. That is what we must build on.

I noticed that the press release for Monday's launch of the Countryside Agency was entitled "Everyone's a Winner in Tomorrow's Countryside". I believe that we will all be winners if we get the future of our AONBs right.

In this debate, we can celebrate the 50th anniversary of the 1949 Act. Despite its flaws, it was a landmark piece of legislation about how we live, work and play in the most beautiful parts of England and Wales and, at the same time, conserve their special qualities. Now, however, we need to ask whether it is time to create a new framework for areas of outstanding natural beauty for the new century—a framework for better management and fairer resourcing.

11.17 am

Mr. Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington)

First, I congratulate the hon. Member for Gower (Mr. Caton) on securing a debate on such an important issue. He is privileged to represent a constituency that contains an area which, although I do not know it myself, my researcher Richard Thomas tells me is as beautiful as the Gower peninsula. I share the hon. Gentleman's concern that areas such as Gower should be afforded more effective protection.

This is the first time I have contributed to a debate specifically concerning areas of outstanding natural beauty, but I have contributed to many debates on the protection of wildlife, sites of special scientific interest, national parks and the right to roam. These issues are, of course, inextricably linked.

As the hon. Member for Gower stated, we are approaching the 50th anniversary of the post-war Labour Government's landmark legislation—the National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act 1949. I hope that this Government will act in a similarly radical and forward-thinking manner. As we approach the millennium, we need further countryside legislation. However, I have already expressed concern that a super Bill, combining access, wildlife protection, AONBs and hedgerow legislation, could end up failing adequately to address the needs of any of those areas—but I am prepared to be pleasantly surprised.

It is probably worth setting out the exact definition of areas of outstanding natural beauty. They are, of course, defined under the 1949 Act to which I referred earlier. According to the Library, the designation is supposed to conserve and enhance natural beauty, taking into account the needs of agriculture, forestry and other rural industries and of the economic and social needs of local communities. Sustainable forms of social and economic development, which in themselves protect and improve the environment, are encouraged. The purpose of AONBs must, of course, be to sustain the beauty of the area, but without freezing it in time—an argument that was stressed in another place as recently as yesterday.

The key difference between AONBs and national parks is that creating opportunities for recreation is not a specific purpose of an AONB. Another key point is that local authorities are supposed to take the special character of the landscape into account when creating policy and controlling development in AONBs, but, as the hon. Member for Gower pointed out, AONBs do not have legal statutory protection. That anomaly should be tackled because "taking into account" can mean different things to different people.

AONBs should be given the same status in that respect as national parks—the highest level of landscape protection. That should be reflected in planning policy guidance note 7. There should be a statutory duty on public bodies and local authorities to have regard to, and further the purpose of, AONBs.

Another feature of areas of outstanding natural beauty is that although they were designated under the 1949 Act, as the hon. Member for Gower said, that Act does not stipulate who is responsible for their management or funding. It is imperative that safe and secure funding from both central and local government be provided to make the AONB status truly effective. That is a view with which the Government have expressed some sympathy.

Mr. Andrew Tyrie (Chichester)

The hon. Gentleman said that he wanted AONBs to be put on a statutory basis, and I agree. Will he therefore support the Bill introduced by Lord Renton of Mount Harry, or something similar, to enable that to be done? Secondly, does he agree that the crucial requirement now is certainty? I have an AONB in my constituency—the south downs. The life of the south downs conservation board was extended for three years two years ago, so it will run out shortly. Certainty is desperately needed for those areas, where there is much concern about the long-term future.

My area does not want to be a national park. It wants an extension of the south downs conservation board. The best way forward is legislation to put that on a sustainable basis. Does the hon. Gentleman agree?

Mr. Brake

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. Some key points are made in Lord Renton's Bill, which I can support. I will be asking the Minister a question about the south downs shortly.

I believe that the Surrey hills is the nearest AONB to my constituency. It provides a place of relaxation and leisurely walks not merely for the residents of Dorking, Box Hill and Reigate, but for much of south London, including, I am sure, many constituents of mine from Carshalton and Wallington. Hence, there should be a national contribution to the running costs of that AONB.

The Liberal Democrats have supported the core proposals outlined by the Countryside Agency and the Countryside Council for Wales. I believe that the Government are also sympathetic to some of those proposals, which would tackle some of the problems that I mentioned. However, I do not believe they would deal with all of them. For instance, they would ensure that in consultation with others a management plan for the AONB was produced. They would ensure secure funding from central as well as local government, and they would require local planning authorities to consult the conservation board, where one exists, on development plans and applications for planning permission that are likely to affect an AONB.

However, the proposals would not solve every problem. For example, the conservation boards advocated by the Countryside Agency would have the power only to advise planning authorities. It is our view that there may well be a case for their having the power to veto developments that are contrary to the stated aims of an AONB. That is of particular importance if, as reported by the media yesterday, the Government are backtracking on their commitment to developing 60 per cent. of new homes on brown-field land. It is precisely areas such as the Surrey hills AONB that would be vulnerable to green-field development if that target is relaxed. I will be happy, of course, if it is merely media spin without substance that has suggested backtracking on that target. I seek a reassurance from the Minister now or when he replies that the Government are holding firm to their target.

I am sure that there is broad agreement in the House on the need to ensure that AONBs are enhanced for the benefit of both local communities and visitors alike.

It is time for the Government to answer some simple questions. Can the Minister tell the House what is his preferred status for the south downs? Does he favour boosted or enhanced AONB status, or does he believe that the downs should become a national park? Can he tell us whether he favours a statutory requirement for conservation boards to be set up, either for all AONBs or for those that cover more than one local authority area? Does he favour a power of veto for the conservation boards over intrusive development in AONBs? Has he negotiated with the Treasury over central Government funding for AONBs, either at the 50 per cent. or the 75 per cent. level that has been advocated?

Finally, when will the Minister make a statement? The hon. Member for Gower referred to "soon, very soon and very very soon". I understand that a reference was made to "pretty soon" in another place yesterday. I will listen to the Minister's response carefully. He has the ability to safeguard some of the most beautiful landscapes in England and Wales. He will need to demonstrate that they are safe in his hands.

11.26 am

Mr. Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you for allowing me to speak in this important debate, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I take this opportunity to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Gower (Mr. Caton) on securing this debate on the 50th anniversary of the National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act 1949. My contribution will be short, but I fully support my hon. Friend's arguments.

Half my constituency is in an area of outstanding natural beauty—the Clwydian range, which also extends into the constituencies of my right hon. Friend the Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mr. Jones) and my hon. Friends the Members for Clwyd, West (Mr. Thomas), for Clwyd, South (Mr. Jones) and for Delyn (Mr. Hanson). My right hon. and hon. Friends support and are aware of the importance of AONBs in the Clywdian range, as they have all signed a charter of support in the courtyard in front of the Members' Lobby, and I know that they wish my hon. Friend the Member for Gower well in his efforts to secure funding.

The Clywdian range in my constituency includes the historic Offa's Dyke footpath, which runs along the brow of those hills. It also includes the Jesuit college of Saint Buenoes, from where the Victorian poet Gerard Manley Hopkins roamed the hills around Tremeirchion and looked down into the vale of Clwyd and the vale of Elwy and wrote poetry about the beautiful scenery that lay before him.

I firmly believe that those hills and green vales are a national treasure—a much neglected treasure and one that is kept on the cheap. As my hon. Friend the Member for Gower so eloquently illustrated, AONBs and national parks are considered of equal beauty and importance. I would even say that the Clwydian range in my constituency has greater beauty than many of the United Kingdom's national parks, but I could be accused of bias. Even though they are of equal beauty and importance, they do not receive equal funding, however. AONBs are the poor relatives of the national parks.

The long-term effect of that underfunding has been the under-utilisation of some of our most valuable and treasured assets. I fear that if long-term funding is not secured for AONBs, we may witness the degradation of those national assets. Funding for AONBs needs to be increased so that it is at least on a par with that of national parks. AONBs can play a key role in regenerating our rural communities, which have suffered so much in the past 10 years because of BSE, the strong pound and tighter regulations in agriculture.

My hon. Friend the Member for Gower asked us to share with him initiatives and good and bad ideas for the AONBs in our constituencies. I will share some initiatives from my constituency with my colleague and the House. It is intended, for instance, to extend cycleways in the rural areas and link them to the Sustrans national cycleway network. That will bring visitors staying on the coast of Wales into the rural hinterland in an environmentally friendly way. People from the coastal towns of Rhyl and Prestatyn, in my constituency, will be able to appreciate that rural hinterland—the mediaeval castles of Rhuddlan and Denbigh, the cathedral at St. Asaph and the marble church at Bodelwyddan.

Those areas of outstanding natural beauty should be a hook not only for visitors to Wales but for the local population. Managers of the AONB in the Clwydian range are taking another initiative. They will pilot free bus trips from the coastal towns of Rhyl and Prestatyn, where 45,000 people live—including some of the poorest people in Wales. Free transport will be provided for those who have no access to cars, to take them to the AONB so that they can experience the beauty that surrounds them.

To open up such sensitive areas as the Clwydian range to more visitors will require even more careful management to ensure that any development is sustainable and does not lead to any damage to the physical environment. I pay tribute to the managers of the AONBs of England and Wales—especially Mr. Howard Sutcliffe in my constituency. He manages the AONB on a shoestring budget and comes up with excellent new initiatives. He is committed to his work. That additional careful management will cost more. We need long-term, secure funding so that those who manage the countryside in the AONBs can concentrate on the task of management. They should not have to go to councils or quangos with begging bowls; nor should they have to lobby politicians: they should do what they are good at—managing the countryside on behalf of the public.

The financial position of AONBs in Wales is even more precarious than that of those in England. Over the years, the Welsh AONBs have been put at a disadvantage vis-à-vis their English counterparts, although they all started from a low base. There will be a chance to redress that imbalance with the advent of objective 1 funding, which will affect 15 counties in Wales; the remaining seven counties will be eligible for objective 2 funding.

There will be a total of £1.8 billion for Wales over the next six years. If we use that money carefully, we can ensure that our AONBs are brought up to scratch and that the facilities offered there are comparable to those offered by the national parks. However, objective 1 funding should be regarded as the icing on the cake; the No. 1 issue is core funding. That will ensure that the original vision, in the 1949 Act, will be achieved. I urge my hon. Friend the Minister to help us to achieve that vision.

11.33 am

Dr. Julian Lewis (New Forest, East)

It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Members for Vale of Clwyd (Mr. Ruane) and for Gower (Mr. Caton), with both of whom I share membership of the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs—there is a danger of the debate becoming a little parochial. I was born and brought up in Swansea and can, therefore, advise the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Mr. Brake) that he is missing out by never having visited the area of outstanding natural beauty in Gower—the second most beautiful rural area in the country. However, I shall speak about Hampshire, especially the New Forest, which is, of course, the most outstanding area of natural beauty in Britain—even if it is not formally classified as such.

Before I begin my own comments, I shall relay the views on AONBs of the head of countryside at Hampshire county council—Mr. Merrick Denton-Thompson. He was good enough to write to me, hoping that I would be able to support the hon. Member for Gower in the general thrust of his remarks in the debate; I am happy to do so. Mr. Denton-Thompson points out: 21% of Hampshire is covered by AONB designation which provides substantial protection from changes in land use. However there is often little or no co-ordination of the land management operations which play an important role in sustaining the outstanding characteristics of such areas. There is an urgent need for more integration between agricultural and environmental objectives within Government if AONBs are to retain their outstanding contribution to the beauty of the English countryside. I am, of course, happy to endorse that in general, but I am sure that Mr. Denton-Thompson and others will appreciate that, sometimes, the same formula does not fit every instance of beautiful countryside. The New Forest is one such case. Some people would try to force the New Forest into the straitjacket of a national park. There are also those who would like to force the parliamentary representatives of the New Forest into a similar appliance. However, my hon. Friend the Member for New Forest, West (Mr. Swayne) and I are united in our belief that the New Forest has survived very well over many years, with special legislation that acknowledges its role as a unique, living and working forest. The forest would not have its current form were it not for the unique contribution of the commoners who raise animals there. That is essential for it to maintain its character.

In recent times, the problems of the commoners have greatly intensified; they turn their animals out on the forest only as a labour of love. They certainly make no profit from doing so. However, they are content to do so in the knowledge that special mechanisms protect their rights in the New Forest, and hence the particular characteristics of the forest that give it so much value in the eyes of the many people who are fortunate enough either to visit it regularly, or—as in my case—to live there. One of the mechanisms that protect the forest is the verderers court—an ancient institution that prevents change in the management of the forest that would be to its detriment. Another body that protects the forest is the Forestry Commission itself. The local authorities also play a serious and responsible role in keeping the forest as we want it to remain for generations to come.

The delicate interplay of all those organisations has an overall beneficial effect and keeps the balance of interests in the forest gently in equilibrium. We are concerned that forcing the New Forest into the straitjacket of national park status would centralise and bureaucratise control of the forest.

Mr. Desmond Swayne (New Forest, West)

I thank my hon. Friend for his courtesy in giving way. Does he accept that, over the past 30 years, on every development versus environment issue, one or other of the local authorities in the area has been on the side of development? That does not inspire confidence in the prospect of a national park authority dominated by local authority interests.

Dr. Lewis

As always, I wholly agree with my hon. Friend's comments on that subject. I much admire the Minister—I am pleased that he will answer the debate today—for the patience and consideration that he showed us when we made representations on that matter. My hon. Friend and I live in hope that the special status of the forest will continue to be recognised, and that the 50th anniversary of the National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act 1949—of which the Government are, rightly, proud—will not be used as an excuse to turn the New Forest into a national park. To celebrate the anniversary in that way might be to the advantage of the Government's PR machine, but would be to the disadvantage of the forest itself.

Other hon. Members want to speak so my remarks will be brief. I refer only to one other threat that seriously menaces the New Forest and to which I adverted on 26 November last year: that a giant container port will be built on the edge of the forest at Dibden bay. That container port would be part of the great port of Southampton. No one appreciates more than my hon. Friend the Member for New Forest, West and I the importance to the area of a successful port in Southampton. But the idea of giant container stacks, huge cranes, and enormous container lorries and trains trundling through the countryside, disfiguring the boundary of the New Forest, fills us with horror.

Sacrifices sometimes have to be made in the national economic interest, but if such a development is imposed on the forest, it will not be necessary in the national economic interest because there is a perfectly acceptable brown-field site in the constituency of the hon. Member for Basildon (Angela Smith) at the site of Shell Haven, an oil refinery which is closing. It is an example of cross-party co-operation that the hon. Lady and I have worked together to achieve something which might be necessary for the national economic interest, is certainly necessary for the interests of her constituents and is anathema to the interests of my constituents, so that the new container port is sited in the most suitable area.

The New Forest has been a jewel in the crown of the English countryside for 900 years. It can continue to glitter and to shine providing that it is protected from the twin threats of unnecessary designation as a national park and appalling desecration by the building of a container port far better suited to other parts of the United Kingdom.

11.42 am

Mrs. Diana Organ (Forest of Dean)

I, too, congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Gower (Mr. Caton) on securing this important debate on areas of outstanding natural beauty. I represent part of an area of outstanding natural beauty, which is unique in that it is covered by three local authorities and two nations—the Wye valley. It is unusual because it follows the outline of the Wye valley rather than a wider countryside area. However, that has not given it the protection that areas of outstanding natural beauty need. Under the previous Administration, under the minerals plan, there was a proposal for five sites for limestone extraction within the boundaries of the Wye valley. When the Labour Government of 1949 set up areas of outstanding natural beauty, they surely never envisaged that. As my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd (Mr. Ruane) pointed out, pressures on such areas must now be addressed.

Mr. Martyn Jones (Clwyd, South)

Does my hon. Friend agree that one problem facing areas of outstanding natural beauty is the burgeoning wind farm business which, even when outside the area, damage the aesthetic beauty of protected areas because they can be seen from them? Should not we be extending protection to those areas which are visible from areas of outstanding natural beauty?

Mrs. Organ

I agree. We would not have a wind farm in the Wye valley, but we might on the limestone escarpment at its edge, and, if that was visible from other vistas, it would detract from the landscape's beauty.

When the Hobhouse report designated our national parks and the areas of outstanding natural beauty, it left out one or two important areas, one of which was the Forest of Dean. As the hon. Member for New Forest, East (Dr. Lewis) said, the New Forest was also exempt from the designation. The Forest of Dean shares many of the characteristics of that landscape. We, too, have a verderers court and an area which is administered by the Forestry Commission. We do not have commoners, but we do have sheep badgers. That same mix of beautiful landscape and heritage linked to agriculture, forestry and the area's culture meant that the Forest of Dean was not included.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Environment, Transport and the Regions (Mr. Alan Meale)

In answer to my hon. Friend and the hon. Member for New Forest, East (Dr. Lewis), who asked about the effect of the Government's decision in respect of the verderers and the commons—I am not sure about sheep badgers—I have given assurances to both the hon. Member for New Forest, East and the hon. Member for New Forest, West (Mr. Swayne) on a number of occasions that the particular status of both groups would not be affected by the Government's decision.

Mrs. Organ

I thank my hon. Friend for that information.

The Forest of Dean was left out and, over the years, we have considered ways in which to give our beautiful landscape some kind of designation to protect it. In the past, many areas have rejected the status of an area of outstanding natural beauty, seeing it as a second-class designation without the powers required to protect the landscape.

Consequently, in April 1997, the then shadow Secretary of State for the Environment came to the Forest of Dean to see the problems facing the area. He said that the area needed special landscape protection, and that proposal has been taken forward by the Government. Land use consultants have come to the area and reported that the Forest of Dean is an area of natural beauty and of national value. We all knew that before, but it is nice to see it in a report. That report is now with the Countryside Agency, which has the remit to take forward consultation on exactly the kind of protection that the Forest of Dean should have and what area it should cover. That is obviously a matter for much wider consultation during the summer and autumn.

In the past, we in the Forest of Dean have rejected the status of an area of outstanding natural beauty because we felt that it would not provide the protection that we wanted for our beautiful landscape. Moreover, the designation is concerned only with the physical landscape; it pays little heed to an area's culture and heritage. It has very little interest in the social and economic regeneration and health of an area. I hope that the Government, in their proposed countryside Bill, will consider an area of outstanding natural beauty mark 2, which would have an holistic approach to the social and economic regeneration of the countryside and the protection of its landscape.

Many who wish to have their landscape protected may be a little chary of such a designation because it has a bad name. Many know that landowners on the edge of an area of outstanding natural beauty prefer to be outside the area rather than within it because they see such a designation as a prescriptive planning hand on the development of their agricultural businesses.

We need a visionary approach to a new area of outstanding natural beauty, rather like the pares naturels in Europe, which are inclusive and have a certain remit for the area's economy.

Mr. Brake

Perhaps the hon. Lady is looking for national park status but with local management. Would she favour that sort of model, which might also be applicable to the constituency of the hon. Member for New Forest, East (Dr. Lewis)?

Mrs. Organ

National park status also comes with its own problems. The national parks were rightly given a remit to provide leisure facilities for people from cities and other areas. There has been a problem, for example, in the Peak district, where the national park board has prevented the development of small rural activities and industries because it sees them as conflicting with the remit of the national park.

The Forest of Dean has an industrial background, although we are a rural community. We would resent not being able to develop our manufacturing sector in the villages and small towns of the forest. The direction in which a national park board wanted to move may work against keeping the economic livelihood of the Forest of Dean going. Although there would be certain advantages for others in national park status, we would reject it.

The protection of landscape of great beauty is done within a planning regime that is often seen to be restrictive and may not allow small rural and agricultural businesses to develop appropriately to keep people employed in the rural economy. There is a mismatch between the wish to enhance the natural landscape and the desire to keep it as a living landscape. People live and work in rural areas. A way forward that could be taken in a countryside Bill may be a land use planning designation that includes a wider remit to regenerate the local area.

I do not know whether my hon. Friend the Minister has read the land use consultant report for the Forest of Dean. I know that he has visited the area and has commented to me on the beauty of the landscape. I should be interested to know what he envisages for the Forest of Dean as a result of the consultation with the Countryside Agency. We have a great opportunity. I congratulate the new Labour Government on setting up the Countryside Agency with a wider remit than the Countryside Commission. There are opportunities for the Countryside Agency to come up with something visionary and new for areas of England and Wales of special landscape that will tackle the problem of preserving areas of great beauty while keeping a working countryside.

11.53 am

Mr. James Gray (North Wiltshire)

It is a pleasure to take part in this important and so far well-balanced, interesting and well-informed debate. I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Gower (Mr. Caton) for calling it. I find myself in the awkward position, in following the hon. Member for Forest of Dean (Mrs. Organ), of agreeing with almost every word that she said. It is an unusual position for me to be in, but none the less I pay tribute to her. I am not certain that I agreed with quite so much of what the Liberal spokesman, the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Mr. Brake), said. I have had occasion before to comment in countryside and rural debates that his constituency is some distance from the nearest area of outstanding natural beauty—not that that precludes him from having a view on the matter.

Mr. Brake

I am happy to point out that Surrey hills and Box hill are approximately five miles from my constituency, so the nearest AONB is not a hundred miles away.

Mr. Gray

I meant no disrespect to the hon. Gentleman. He and I sit on the Environment Select Committee together and I never miss an opportunity to pull his leg.

Rather than being five miles from an area of outstanding natural beauty, my constituency incorporates two. The Cotswolds includes such marvellous places as the villages of Badminton, Castle Combe and Lacock and the North Wessex downs—I must not repeat my maiden speech. I have a certain amount of experience of living and working in two AONBs and I want to talk about that rather than, like the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington, looking into them from outside. There is an important distinction to be made. Often, people talk at great length about how fine the landscape is and how much we like to go on holiday to areas of outstanding natural beauty. I go to one in Cornwall and enjoy it as a holidaymaker. I go fox hunting in another one—I just thought I would throw that in for the benefit of the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington. We all like to go for picnics in AONBs and see them on chocolate boxes. However, we are not talking about going to them for recreational purposes—we are talking about what they are, how they can be preserved, how they can be made better and how, as the hon. Member for Forest of Dean said, we can look after the people who live and work in them. Therefore, this is a useful and important debate.

I broadly welcome the thrust of the Bill currently in the other place, introduced by my noble Friend Lord Renton of Mount Harry. Much of the Bill is useful and it will strengthen AONBs in a variety of ways. It will impose a duty on local authorities to have due regard to and further the AONBs. Curiously enough, local authorities have not had to pay attention to them until now. The Bill institutes a duty to have a management plan. It is terribly important that there must be some kind of business plan stating how the AONBs will be managed. The Bill requires local authorities to consult conservation boards on planning. Those are useful provisions.

I have some reservations about the views of some interest groups including Friends of the Earth and the Countryside Agency, which believe that the Bill does not go far enough. They have talked about more stringent restrictions in AONBs. To go further than my noble Friend does in his Bill might cause some of the difficulties that the hon. Member for Forest of Dean mentioned.

The beauty of landscapes has not happened automatically over the centuries. They are not as God made them. If one walks in the Cotswolds, one sees a landscape that has been created by farming, hedgerows, walls, fields, sheep farms and the beautiful warm yellow buildings typical of the area. All those things were created by farmers, who are the caretakers of the landscape. The crisis in agriculture must worry all of us who care about AONBs. Not only past but current generations have created AONBs. My two—not exclusively mine, I hasten to add, but the two in my constituency—are traversed by the M4. People who like to denigrate my constituency say that it is junctions 16 to 18 of the M4 and a couple of miles either side of it.

Dr. Julian Lewis

Disgraceful.

Mr. Gray

That is disgraceful, as my hon. Friend correctly says. It is true that the M4 goes straight through the middle of my constituency. We have some vibrant companies such as Dyson, who makes his vacuum cleaners in Malmesbury right in the centre of the Cotswold AONB. Mr. Dyson is currently applying for planning permission to double the size of his factory from 1,100 employees to 3,000. The land is smack bang in the middle of an AONB. I have not yet come to a clear conclusion on the application. Do we say to Mr. Dyson, "Of course you must continue to expand. Your business is important to us. You employ up to 3,000 people"? Or do we say that the AONB is so overwhelmingly important that Mr. Dyson must be prevented from expanding and he can perhaps move to south Wales, Swindon or wherever? There must be a balance between considering the area as a picture on a chocolate box and considering it as a chocolate box within which real people live and work—a point made well so far in the debate.

We have to think not only about the beauty and the landscape, but about the economic and social attributes of the area and all the other things that go into the creation of an AONB such as that in my constituency. It is a living, working countryside. People who look at AONBs from outside forget about the rural poverty of many people in constituencies such as mine, and about the transport problems and the cost of petrol for people who live in an AONB. All they think about is going to an area of outstanding natural beauty on a Saturday to have a picnic. That is not what AONBs are about: they are about creating living, working places that are as vibrant as the towns.

I welcome the debate and many of the contributions. I thoroughly welcome most of the proposals in my noble Friend's Bill. However, I urge a little caution on the forthcoming rural Bill, which may be introduced in the next Session. We must find a way of preserving the beauty of our countryside that we inherited from our grandparents and ancestors, but we must never forget the vibrancy and economic importance of such areas. It is terribly important to maintain that economic vibrancy by preserving jobs and improving employment prospects in the area. We must constantly balance the everlasting, unchanging changelessness—in the words of the English Prayer Book—of the English countryside, which in my constituency straddles the vibrancy and economic importance of the M4 high-tech corridor.

12.1 pm

Mr. Damian Green (Ashford)

I echo the congratulations offered by hon. Members on both sides of the House to the hon. Member for Gower (Mr. Caton) on securing this debate, not only because of the importance of the subject, but because it has given hon. Members the chance to take part in an imaginary tour of some of the loveliest areas of England and Wales, which is good for the soul and informs an important and topical debate.

Much mention has been made of the Bill before the House of Lords proposed by my noble Friend Lord Renton. It is worth putting on record that this House has held its own in the literary stakes. Those who are interested in the subject will have read the Second Reading debate on Lord Renton's Bill in the other place. It showed not only the expertise and experience that we have all come to expect from Members of that House, but it contained a surprising degree of poetry. Keats, Kipling and Wilde were quoted as illustrations of what AONBs evoke in some of our greatest writers. I am glad that, in our tour of the same subject, the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (Mr. Ruane) mentioned Gerard Manley Hopkins, and my hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire (Mr. Gray) mentioned the English Prayer Book. This House has held up its literary end.

I agree with the hon. Member for Gower about the necessity for a speedy response from the Government on the issues that have been raised by Lord Renton and by various environmental bodies, including the Countryside Agency. The Opposition welcome practical moves to improve the status and protection of AONBs. If the 1949 Act needs changing, we will not oppose any necessary moves in that direction.

It is worth mentioning in detail the ideas suggested by Lord Renton, partly because his Bill is closely based on the advice given to Ministers by the Countryside Agency—or the Countryside Commission as it then was. That advice fell into three main categories. The first was to establish statutory conservation boards on an opt-in and not a compulsory basis, which is an important distinction. The second was to secure funding from central and local government, and the third was to strengthen the protection given by the planning system. I am sure that the Government will consider each of those three areas, and will ponder how best to put each of them into legislation.

I agree with hon. Members that the Government should proceed quickly, but I urge them not to mix the vital countryside protection measures that we all want with more politically controversial proposals. The Opposition will support sensible legislation that updates wildlife and countryside protection laws, but it must not be mixed up with damaging and controversial legislation, such as right-to-roam measures or any new attempt to introduce anti-hunting provisions.

The future of AONBs and other areas, such as sites of special scientific interest, is too important to be put at risk, which it would be if the much-delayed countryside Bill were designed to cause political controversy. With that caveat, I hope that the Minister will give us some assurance that of all the delayed Bills that his Department has not yet got into the legislative programme, that one will feature in the next Session. If it is limited to measures that are wanted by hon. Members on both sides of the House, Lord Renton and the many conservation bodies that take a deep interest in these matters, we shall give it a fair wind, although we shall obviously have detailed comments to make. I hope that that strengthens the arm of the Deputy Prime Minister in negotiations with his colleagues about what will appear in the next Gracious Speech.

This is an urgent measure, but each issue is complex. I shall deal with them in turn, as they appear in the Renton Bill. My hon. Friend the Member for New Forest, East (Dr. Lewis) talked about the need for co-ordination among the various bodies that currently have powers over AONBs. There is clearly a strong argument for statutory management boards built on the south downs model. It is wise for Lord Renton to propose making that optional rather than compulsory. Different circumstances obtain in each AONB, not least the practical problem of the number of different local authorities that are involved in controlling an area. I strongly believe that permissive powers are better than an imposed centralised structure.

One may well ask the valid question whether an additional tier of bureaucracy that may emerge in some areas is the best way, in practice, to protect the countryside. We are all interested in the countryside. As my hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire said, AONBs are not merely picture postcard areas. If the imposition of an extra tier of bureaucracy hinders sympathetic development, it may, in the long term, do no good to the preservation of the beauty of these areas.

The Minister should also consider the duty of local authorities to act sympathetically to protect AONBs. As well as a sympathetic attitude, we all know that money is very important. AONBs are the equivalent of national parks in terms of landscape quality, but not in other ways. It has been said that although AONBs may not be the ugly sisters, they are the poor sisters of the national parks. They do not get the same support as national parks. Many local authorities will feel that they are in the same position. I urge the Government not to impose new duties on those local authorities without giving them the money to perform them effectively. The Countryside Agency reckons that 50 per cent. of the core management costs should come from central Government; others are bidding higher at 75 per cent. Will the Minister explain his thinking on this issue?

Recreation is clearly another difficult area. Too much of it would destroy an AONB: not just its natural beauty, but the preservation of its flora and fauna. I congratulate the Sussex downs board on its success in hiding the 32 million visitors to that area each year—not least in hiding them from each other—so that its beauty is not lost. I am sure that the Minister appreciates this essential point: if we destroy the flora and fauna that constitute an AONB, they are destroyed for ever. Sympathetic recreation is extremely important.

I feel most dubious about my noble Friend's Bill in the area of compulsory purchase. I have two reasons for wondering whether extending the powers of compulsory purchase is an appropriate way of protecting AONBs. First, responsible private ownership has proved to be the best way of ensuring the long-term protection of a managed landscape. I am encouraged by the tone of this morning's debate to believe that there is no instinctive prejudice on either side of the House against private ownership and the advantages that it can bring to our countryside.

A few months ago, The Field magazine wrote: The old threat of nationalisation of the ownership of land has been replaced by a gradual move to actual nationalisation of the use of land. That is an overly dramatic statement, but it is an important and legitimate consideration. As long as its private owners behave sympathetically, too much intervention in the landscape may do long-term harm. Bodies such as the Country Landowners Association and the National Farmers Union have pointed out—as did my hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire today—that the landscapes are both settled and managed. They are not empty areas where people go for the weekend to enjoy the chocolate box scenery. The work that has been done to such areas—and which continues to be done within them—makes them attractive. We must not turn them into museums.

In that regard, I pay tribute to the work of the Rural Development Commission—which ceased to exist this week. I know from its efforts in my constituency that it has worked hard to provide the support for small local businesses that allows people to continue to live and work in villages and therefore preserve the health of the countryside. I hope that the RDC's good work will be continued not only by the Countryside Agency, but by the regional development agencies.

Mr. Gray

Will my hon. Friend confirm that we are concerned that the voice of the rural areas may be lost on the regional development agencies unless the correct people are appointed to those bodies? Someone must assume the former role of the RDC and continue to fight the rural corner within the RDAs.

Mr. Green

I had restrained myself from making that point, but I happily agree with my hon. Friend. I also fear that the rural voice will be lost on the RDAs.

Although work should continue in AONBs, it is clear that they are not suitable for large-scale housing developments. The National Trust has expressed its concern about the way in which new housing developments may be accommodated within AONBs to meet the demand for housing in rural areas. That is a topical issue in light of the release of Rogers's report yesterday. An outcome of that report must be less pressure on AONBs for house building. I must admit that, although I live in hope, I have no great expectations. I agree with the editorial in today's edition of The Independent, which recounts the Deputy Prime Minister's response to the Rogers report. He said: It provides a wide range of interesting and forward-thinking recommendations to feed into ongoing work across Government and beyond'.

The Independent goes on to comment: It is hard to think of a phrase of Whitehall-speak to dampen enthusiasm faster.

New measures must be introduced quickly. The Countryside Agency, in its previous guise as the Countryside Commission, got it right when it said: We"— that means all of us— have a duty to future generations to protect and care for these areas of beautiful countryside. If action is not taken, their integrity will crumble; their fabric will deteriorate. I hope that the Minister will respond to calls for early legislation in this area. Such legislation must be practical, it must be based on the real needs of our countryside and it must not include measures that will damage the countryside. I hope that the Minister will bear that in mind and that he will win a legislative slot next Session so that the House may return soon to the consideration of this vital issue.

12.15 pm

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Environment, Transport and the Regions (Mr. Alan Meale)

I, too, congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Gower (Mr. Caton) and thank him for giving the House the opportunity this morning to celebrate the importance of areas of outstanding natural beauty in Wales and in England. I am particularly glad of the chance to respond to this debate.

My hon. Friend takes a special interest in AONBs and is very knowledgeable about them. As he demonstrated at the beginning of the debate, he is able to wax eloquently about AONBs in his constituency of the Gower, which—as he pointed out—was the first AONB to be designated in 1956. Because it was a trend-setter, the Gower clearly has a special place in the family of AONBs, and my hon. Friend's championing of it is typical of the loyalty and the pride that areas of special value inspire in people across England and Wales. My hon. Friend was certainly inspired by the countryside in the House this morning.

I was glad to meet recently my hon. Friend and a delegation from the AONB staff forum to talk about issues of interest and concern across the AONBs. As the name suggests, the staff forum is a grouping of the dedicated people who work in AONBs and who come together to exchange expertise and to champion the cause of conservation and the enhancement of those areas. At the meeting, they told me about some of the imaginative projects that are under way in our AONBs and of their concerns for the future. I look forward to meeting my hon. Friend and a further delegation from the AONB Association.

I turn briefly to a question raised by the hon. Member for Ashford (Mr. Green) in relation to the Rural Development Commission. I am grateful for the congratulations that he offered on the honourable work that that august body has performed and I agree with him wholeheartedly. However, I disagree with his interpretation of how the rural voice will be affected by its demise—a view that was also expressed by the hon. Member for North Wiltshire (Mr. Gray). I remind hon. Members that, when regional development agency boards were established, the Government insisted—this call has been repeated again and again by Labour Members—that the rural voice should be heard loudly in those august bodies.

We set out several criteria, the most oft repeated of which concerns the recruitment processes that we introduced for membership of RDAs. We insisted that if people failed the rural test in their interviews, they would not be appointed to the boards. Since then, in the context of RDA financing, we have insisted on a 20 per cent. ratio for rural and coastal communities and for coalfield areas—which, in most cases, straddle the two. That criterion is built into the economics of RDAs.

My hon. Friend spoke about the 50th anniversary of the National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act, which, I am proud to say, was enacted by the Attlee Government in 1949 and which provided for the designation of AONBs as well as national parks. I say that with pride because I was brought up in an urban coalfield area in the north-east of England.

One of the leading figures in passing the 1949 Act was Hugh Dalton, who was then the Member of Parliament for my constituency. He visited my parents on occasion to talk about matters of deep interest to him in his role as local MP. He used to wax lyrical about the importance of that legislation, as did one of my predecessors as Member of Parliament for Mansfield—Lord Bernard Taylor, who is, sadly, deceased. He was a leading figure and, at one time, Parliamentary Private Secretary to the Prime Minister, Harold Wilson. Lord Taylor was deeply engaged in the establishment of national parks and tried to build on the 1949 legislation. Like the hon. Member for North Wiltshire, I never miss an opportunity to mention such matters because, if nothing else, it makes me feel good. However, those matters are particularly relevant to today's debate. Various celebrations of that anniversary will occur this year, marking the successes that have been achieved while looking to the future. I cannot think of a more appropriate time, when we are about to enter a new millennium, for such celebration.

The formation of the AONB Association, in time for the 50th anniversary and over 40 years after the designation of the first AONB, is a demonstration of the increasing awareness of the importance of our AONBs. However, as my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mrs. Organ) pointed out, they have long been regarded by many as second-class citizens compared with our national parks, and many people who care for them are determined that this should no longer be the case. The AONB Association provides, for the first time, a channel for members of local authorities that look after AONBs, and others who are interested and involved, to further their common cause.

My right hon. Friend the Minister for the Environment and I very much regret that we have been unable, because of previous diary commitments, to take up an invitation to attend this year's conference of the AONB Association in Cirencester in September. Nevertheless, we wish it well, and hope to have the opportunity to participate in future events of that kind. I have given a commitment on that.

I am reliably assured that there are 37 AONBs in England and four in Wales. Those 41 AONBs all have special qualities, but they are very diverse in size and in landscape, ranging from one that includes the limestone grassland and pretty villages of the Cotswolds to one that is less than a twenty-fifth of that size—the salt marshes and cliffs of Arnside and Silverdale. Of course, we must not forget the Gower, which has an extremely varied range of coastal and inland habitats.

It is useful at this point to remember that the legislation recognises no distinction in the landscape quality between the two national landscape designations of national parks and AONBs. Each is regarded as being as beautiful as the other. The difference lies in the fact that national park designation relates not only to landscape beauty, but to wildlife and cultural heritage, and in the requirement for the parks to be substantial tracts of countryside that provide significant recreational opportunities. National parks have also traditionally been designated in our more remote upland areas.

The purpose of designating AONBs is, of course, to conserve and enhance the natural beauty of the landscape. Many of them undoubtedly also play a big part in meeting the huge demand for visits to the countryside, and they are visited by an enormous number of people who come for all sorts of reasons, as well as being enjoyed on a regular basis by those lucky enough to live in the area.

As everyone engaged in this debate is aware, the Government are firmly committed to protecting and enhancing our finest countryside. Indeed, we fully recognise the importance to the nation of our AONBs, which contain so many of our finest landscapes. We recognise also that the interests of the local communities who live or work in those areas are vital considerations. The contributions of farmers and other landowners to maintaining the landscape are of particular importance.

Mr. Tyrie

Will the Minister give way?

Mr. Meale

In a moment. First, I want to pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman's colleague, the hon. Member for North Wiltshire—which is almost as surprising as the hon. Member for North Wiltshire paying tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Gower. I thank the hon. Gentleman for his remarks because in these debates we often lose sight of the role of the farming and countryside communities as caretakers of our rural areas. There often seems to be a lack of communication, and I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for pointing out the important role of those communities.

Mr. Tyrie

The Minister has made clear his commitment to the principle of AONBs. I came fairly new to this subject and, as he probably knows, two years ago, my hon. Friend the Member for Arundel and South Downs (Mr. Flight) and I called for a debate to try to secure an extension to the south downs conservation board. The Government granted a three-year extension, which is due to expire in about 18 months. Before he concludes, will the Minister tell us whether the Government intend to make the arrangements for the south downs permanent? As he knows, and I have said before, there is widespread opposition to having a national park, but there is overwhelming local support for making the south downs conservation board permanent.

Mr. Meale

I hope to deal with that matter. If I can get through the rest of my speech in the next three of four minutes, I will give the hon. Gentleman that information.

Special consideration must be made of AONBs because of the recognition that their landscapes are of sufficient importance to have particular value to the nation as a whole. However, as I said earlier, we need to maintain a balance between that consideration and the need, which the Government's policy towards the countryside stresses, to sustain living and working communities as well as a ood-quality environment.

We have heard today about the advice on the future treatment of AONBs which the former Countryside Commission delivered to the Government last summer. I can assure hon. Members that the subject of the advice—which related to the future status of the New Forest and the south downs, as well as making recommendations for AONBs generally—is never far from my mind or that of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, and our postbags always contain letters about those matters.

Hon. Members will not be surprised when I confirm that I shall not today make any statement about the Government's conclusions on those matters. I can, however, confirm that they remain under active consideration in my Department and that we intend to announce conclusions very soon. [Interruption.] That is better than soon.

I understand that the Countryside Council for Wales has delivered similar advice about AONBs, although, because of the nature of the Welsh AONBs, it does not see the need to provide for statutory conservation boards. Those will be matters for the Welsh Assembly to consider.

The Government are sympathetic to the need to do more to foster a positive approach to the management and protection of AONBs into the next century. In that respect, we have already demonstrated our commitment by providing the Countryside Agency with an extra £2.5 million for work in AONBs in England this year. That will make a difference. It more than doubles the funds that were available to the former Countryside Commission for the support of AONBs, and it will allow a considerable degree of progress to be made in putting in place new management plans and new programmes, and in helping to provide additional expert staff. We shall continue to monitor progress on that to find out what is being achieved and what more needs to be done.

A great deal has, of course, already been achieved in AONBs through the enthusiasm and commitment of local people, by local authorities and other local partners working together, by the Countryside Agency in England and by the Countryside Council for Wales. I understand that at least 26 of the 41 AONBs currently have a management plan in place, and a great many have an AONB officer or a joint advisory committee set up by their local authority.

Of course, because AONBs are very different in size and nature, there is not only one way of managing them or caring for them. Some lie solely within the area of one local authority, which is generally best placed to co-ordinate a management programme. Others stretch over long distances, often following a geographical feature, such as the Sussex downs. In that case, and in other cases, several local authorities are involved.

The experiment set up by the former Countryside Commission and the local authorities in 1992 to form a conservation board for the Sussex downs has in many ways brought us to where we are today on the question of AONBs. In conclusion—

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael J. Martin)

Order. We now come to the next debate.