§ Mr. MacleanI beg to move amendment No. 3, in page 1, leave out lines 9 to 11 and insert—
'(a) hold, and receive interest accruing thereon, money, other financial assets and investments, and valuables on behalf of a person in pursuance of subsection (1) of this section, and'.
§ Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael Lord)With this, it will be convenient to discuss amendment No. 4, in page 1, line 16, at end insert—
'(3B) If the value of other financial assets and investments and valuables held by the managers of a hospital under the provisions of subsection (3A) of this section exceeds £5,000 then the administration of the patient's financial portfolio shall be passed to an independent financial adviser or professional, or curator bonis appointed by the Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland.'.
§ Mr. MacleanI apologise to the House, as it was remiss of me not to mention the hon. Member for Midlothian (Mr. Clarke), the Bill's promoter, and the hon. Member for Paisley, North (Mrs. Adams), for whom I have the utmost respect. She is a very brave lady who has had a lot to put up with over the past few years. I congratulate her on piloting the Bill through today.
I hope that the Minister will be as courteous and as kind as he was in our previous discussion. He does not have a job in the Scottish Executive, but he will always be welcome in the House on a Friday, because of his demeanour and his approach.
Amendment No. 3 is designed to probe the definition of money that hospital managers may hold and expend on behalf of discharged patients. Following the terminology used in section 94, the Bill refers to hospital managers dealing with money or "valuables". "Valuables" would normally mean items such as a ring, watch or camera. That is what one feels the legislation means.
The amendment would add other assets and investments, to ensure that patients with holdings, however small, in forms other than cash or bank or building society accounts, do not fall outside the scope of the legislation. Those assets might not be "valuables" in the hospital administrator's sense of the term.
I accept that in practice there may be very few patients with such investments, but it is sensible to clarify the position. A patient could be left in a will a financial asset other than money deposited in a bank or building society. The amendment would allow such assets to be included in the property that can be administered by hospital managers. I suspect that the Minister may tell me that the definition of money would include those assets anyway, but it is better to be sure that such moneys are covered.
Amendment No. 4 is slightly different; its purpose is to ensure that if assets held by a discharged patient exceed £5,000 in value, the administration of the assets shall be carried out by a financial adviser or other suitable professional appointed by the Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland.
1537 The amendment would guarantee that hospital managers did not become unduly burdened by having to administer assets of great value. There may be cases in which curators bonis deal with assets that are not of great monetary value, since it seems that they should be appointed to administer only those estates that are worth over £50,000. What about estates between £20,000 and £50,000?
I suggest that hospital managers should not have to administer any estate worth more than £5,000. I hope that if the Minister does not like that idea, at least my hon. Friend the Member for New Forest, West (Mr. Swayne) will, because he cannot complain that I am trying to put an undue burden on hospital managers. My amendment suggests that some other suitably qualified professional should be appointed.
That would also be in the best interests of patients. If assets are of considerable value, the ways in which they are invested can have a material effect on the financial returns that they earn. It is the job of a financial manager in a hospital to manage small sums and ensure that they are in a building society account earning whatever interest is available at the time. Someone with larger assets should have a more qualified professional, such as an investment manager appointed by the Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland, to ensure that those assets are deposited in the right sort of accounts, or used to acquire the right sort of bonds, stocks and shares, and trust funds, to give the best possible return. It is not a hospital manager's job to make such decisions.
My amendment would pass such responsibility to an independent professional appointed by the Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland. I chose the trigger value of £5,000 because if an incapax patient in hospital has more assets than that, the managers must obtain the consent of the commission before they can administer the funds. Scottish law already recognises that if hospital managers are investing funds of more than £5,000, they have to consult the commission as an appeal or regulatory body. I suggest that such matters should be taken out of the managers' hands and given to a financial adviser appointed by the commission.
In practice there may be very few such patients, and if the Minister tells me that the problem is already dealt with, or that there will be guidance, or that the problem will be dealt with in the new legislation now being designed in Scotland to cover mentally incapable adults, I should be happy to withdraw my amendment.
§ Mr. MacdonaldI hope that I can provide some of the reassurance that the right hon. Gentleman seeks. At present, section 94 of the 1984 Act, which applies to patients in hospital, provides for hospital managers to assume the management of money and valuables where no other arrangements have been made. Money and valuables are not defined; that is a benefit, and it works adequately to allow hospital managers the flexibility to do what is in the best interests of patients. Typically, money can include a variety of resources, including income from pensions, bank accounts and so on.
Amendment No. 4 would give the Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland the responsibility of appointing an independent financial adviser, other professional or curator bonis when a person discharged from hospital into the community has financial assets and valuables exceeding £5,000 in value.
1538 At present, hospital managers require the consent of the Mental Welfare Commission to hold money or valuables on behalf of any person where the total value exceeds the sum determined by the First Minister. That sum currently stands at £5,000. There is already power under the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984 for the commission to appoint a curator bonis where no other suitable arrangements for the management of someone's resources have been made.
Amendment No. 4 would limit the very useful flexibility that the commission currently enjoys by requiring it to appoint a financial adviser or curator bonis in cases when it would still be perfectly acceptable for hospital managers to continue to look after a person's assets. It has been pointed out that administration of a person's assets can be expensive, and that the costs must be met from that person's resources. The judgment in each person's case is best left to the commission, as the people involved benefit from the flexibility that individual judgments provide. I hope that the right hon. Member for Penrith and The Border will accept that that flexibility protects the interests of the patient, and should therefore be retained.
§ Mr. MacleanI listened carefully to the Minister. I am always worried that the Minister's fundamental courtesy will beguile me into accepting his point of view even though I profoundly disagree with him. I am grateful for his acknowledgement that the amendments are designed to improve the Bill.
I have no intention of pressing amendments that would remove flexibility. I accept the Minister's arguments about amendment No. 4. If I had drafted it differently, to include the hospital authority among the possible appointees of the commission, it might have been more acceptable. My naive intention, having read that the curator bonis can be quite an expensive option, was that appointing another financial adviser might be cheaper. Given that bank charges are rising inexorably, a banker or stock broker might levy even higher charges than a curator bonis.
I accept the Minister's warning that amendment No. 4 would reduce flexibility. I also accept his assurances, in connection with amendment No. 3, that the provision covering money and valuables is widely drafted and can include all sorts of valuables, over and above the few bits and bobs in people's handbags, suitcases or pockets when they go into hospital.
I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.