§ 1. Mr. Andrew Dismore (Hendon)If he will make a statement on the security situation in the Gulf. [65523]
§ The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr. George Robertson)Saddam Hussein's war machine has been seriously weakened by Operation Desert Fox. We estimate that 87 per cent. of targets were either destroyed or damaged—a very impressive performance. Saddam' s ability to make or use chemical and biological weapons or otherwise threaten his neighbours has been set back significantly. He, however, remains the greatest threat to security in the Gulf, and we are now acting to contain him in the future.
§ Mr. DismoreDoes my right hon. Friend agree that we must continue to patrol the no-fly zones to protect the Kurds and Marsh Arabs from further atrocities at the hands of Saddam Hussein, whose complete and flagrant 2 disregard for United Nations resolutions and human rights is plain for all to see? Does my right hon. Friend also agree that attempted comparisons between Saddam Hussein's brutal dictatorship and the democracy of the state of Israel are wholly fallacious and misplaced?
§ Mr. RobertsonMy hon. Friend is right about the no-fly zones. They were established for good and humanitarian purposes, inasmuch as Saddam Hussein had at various times threatened and attacked the Shia Muslims in the south of his country and the Kurds in the north. We shall continue to patrol the zones, although this isolated and increasingly desperate dictator is clearly using them, and the violations of them, to heighten the temperature. He has violated the zones well over 50 times, and his missiles have repeatedly tracked and threatened our aircraft.
We will continue the patrols, and any attempt to interfere with or attack coalition aircraft will be met with an appropriate and robust response.
There is no comparison between a democracy such as Israel, and a complete and utter dictatorship such as Saddam' s Iraq.
§ Mr. John Wilkinson (Ruislip-Northwood)Will the Secretary of State congratulate the officers and men of 12 Squadron Royal Air Force, whose offensive operations from Kuwait during Operation Desert Fox were greatly admired by, I think, the whole House and the country? Will he assure us that there will be enough Tornado aircraft for units to be rotated through the Gulf and to be stationed there for an appropriate length of time, in view of the rundown of aircraft to meet the requirement for midlife updates, and the rundown of squadrons envisaged by the strategic defence review?
§ Mr. RobertsonI welcome the hon. Gentleman's commendation of 12 Squadron. I, too, commended its members when I greeted them at RAF Lossiemouth on their return from the Gulf. I shook hands with every individual who came off the plane. We are all very proud 3 of what the squadron did in the name of international law and order. They all—ground and air crew—went out to risk their lives in the interests of the safety of the states in the Gulf region.
I assure the hon. Gentleman that there is no question of our not having the resources to ensure that Tornado aircraft are there, as part of our containment policy in relation to Saddam and also to police the no-fly zones. These are important missions, and they will be well staffed.
§ Mr. George Galloway (Glasgow, Kelvin)My right hon. Friend's robust defence of Mr. Netanyahu's Israel will have been widely noted by those in Arab and Muslim circles who watch our debates. He did not, robustly or otherwise, refer to the missiles that struck the ancient Arab port city of Basra this morning, leading—as this afternoon's television showed us—to the death of innocent women and children whose houses were bombed by the Smart missiles of whose staggering accuracy we were told in December.
As my right hon. Friend's policy is now bereft of support from any country in the world except the United States, Britain and Israel, is it not time that this verminous desert fox was put to sleep?
§ Mr. RobertsonOnce again, it will be noticed that my hon. Friend did not utter a word of criticism about Saddam Hussein, what he is doing and what he has done in the past. We shall note other comments carefully in the light of that.
Let me point out to my hon. Friend that yesterday the Government of Iraq stormed out of a meeting of the Foreign Ministers of the Arab League, on the basis that they were not receiving the support that they required from the Arab countries. Nor have they and nor will they, because the Arab countries see Saddam Hussein as the man responsible for bringing on his own people the iniquities of which he makes so much.
The recent Operation Desert Fox took place with precision guided weapons. The world, and, indeed, the Iraqi regime, have not been able to make capital out of collateral damage or civilian deaths, but, in the wake of that, Saddam has chosen to violate the no-fly zones set up in support of UN Security Council Resolution 688. He shows no compunction in deploying surface-to-air missiles into urban areas as well.
On our part, however, we take care during any action, whether it be offensive, for example, Operation Desert Fox, which was directed against his military and war machine, or whether it is in response to attacks on the aircraft in the no-fly zones. We cannot take into account actions taken by Saddam Hussein when he moves his missiles around. Iraqi claims of civilian casualties today are being investigated, but it is much too early to expect an outcome.
§ Mr. Menzies Campbell (North-East Fife)Is not the fragility of the security situation in the Gulf caused by Iraq's military manoeuvres near the Kuwaiti border; by the radar tracking of aircraft which endeavour to enforce the no-fly zones; and by Iraq's attempted intimidation of other Arab Governments? Does the Secretary of State recognise that the resistance of those Governments at the weekend provides an opportunity for increased 4 co-operation between this Government and those countries and between the European Union and those countries, so as to maintain the political consensus against Saddam Hussein?
§ Mr. RobertsonI congratulate the right hon. and learned Gentleman on his elevation to the Privy Council. He is absolutely right. Indeed, the recent threats by the Deputy Prime Minister of Iraq against Kuwait showed precisely what are still Saddam's objectives in that area. Therefore, we will stay alert. That is why HMS Invincible is on her way and will arrive in the Gulf region within the next few days. I am also delighted to be able to tell the House that the invitation to tender for the initial assessment phase of the new carrier project has been released to industry today. It is a huge signal of our continued interest in the safety of the countries in the Gulf that we have sent HMS Invincible, an asset of undoubted character, quality and, indeed, intimidation to Saddam. Future generations will be able to rely on a successor generation of aircraft carriers.
§ Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley)Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the only reason why sanctions on Iraq are not lifted is Saddam Hussein's behaviour? If he kept to the UN resolutions, the sanctions would be lifted.
What progress has been made towards extending the no-fly zones to a no-drive zone? The Kurds in the north and the Shias in the south are concerned that Saddam Hussein seems to be making even more nasty noises in their direction than he has in recent months.
§ Mr. RobertsonMy hon. Friend is absolutely right, as she has been for a long time, in pointing out that sanctions can easily be lifted on the decision of Saddam Hussein himself. He has that within his gift if he simply complies with the terms of the UN Security Council resolutions to which he adhered at the end of the Gulf war. We must therefore judge his complaints about the nature of the impact of sanctions in the light of the fact that it would be relatively simple for him to disclose his past history of holding weapons of mass destruction, ensure that those weapons were destroyed and give the assurances that are required by the international community about his future behaviour.
We believe that the no-fly zones in northern and southern Iraq are sufficient at the moment to contain Saddam Hussein's hostile intent against the domestic population in those areas, but any subsequent moves that he makes will be examined with a view to seeing what more can be done to ensure that his population and the populations of surrounding countries are protected.
§ Mr. Robert Key (Salisbury)Given that the Prime Minister has told us that we have put Saddam back in his cage and that the Secretary of State has confirmed that, with 87 per cent. accuracy, we have degraded Saddam's military capability, when will the Secretary of State consider that we have achieved our military objectives? As we dig in deeper in the region, what are the political objectives and will they require further military commitment?
§ Mr. RobertsonThe Prime Minister stated at the beginning of Operation Desert Fox that the objective of the military operation was to degrade Saddam Hussein's 5 military capabilities and to reduce the threat that he posed to his neighbours. It is the assessment of our Government and of the Government of the United States—with whom we were in partnership—that we have inflicted so much damage on Saddam's war machine that it has put his capability to threaten his neighbours back for one year, certainly, and perhaps for up to two years. The objective now is to produce a political track that, along with the military track, will contain Saddam's ability to threaten his neighbours and get us to the point at which he will comply with the Security Council resolutions and make the Gulf and the wider middle eastern region safer than it is today.
§ Mr. Dale Campbell—Savours (Workington)Did my right hon. Friend see the very interesting article by Marie Colvin in The Sunday Times yesterday, drawing attention to the development of an enclave in southern Iraq? That policy is being pursued by the Americans. I have repeatedly asked for such a policy on a Basra enclave. Could we enter into discussions with the Americans on the development of such a policy and find ways in which we can contribute, because some of us believe that that is the only way to sort out the dilemma?
§ Mr. RobertsonAs it happens, I did not manage to read that article in The Sunday Times yesterday, but I recognise that some people hold strongly to the view that that is a way to deal with the threat that Saddam Hussein poses to his own population and to the rest of the region. We are considering all such ideas, together with our discussions with the Iraqi opposition. The main message that we have to get across to the international community and to the people of Iraq, by whatever means possible, is that Iraq has a proud future among the nations of the world, but that it is unlikely to be able to play a dignified part in world affairs as long as Saddam Hussein leads the current regime.