Gibraltar

HC Deb 11 February 1999 vol 325 cc463-70 12.30 pm

Mr. Michael Howard (Folkestone and Hythe)

(by private notice): To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement—[Interruption.]

Madam Speaker

Order. The Minister is being asked a question, yet the Government Front Bench is in disorder—I have even got Liberal Democrats on the Government Front Bench!

Mr. Howard

Nothing should surprise us, Madam Speaker.

To continue, I ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on developments relating to Gibraltar.

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Ms Joyce Quin)

Over the past year, there have been problems relating to Spanish fishing in British Gibraltar waters. Those began when fishermen started to enter the waters in larger numbers than had been tolerated in the past. We reached an understanding with the Spanish Government on the situation that had prevailed from 1991 to 1997, when fishing took place in moderation and the fishermen respected the authority of the Gibraltar law enforcement agencies. We agreed with the Spanish that we should revert to that situation.

Nevertheless, we faced continuing difficulties on the water. On 27 January, a Spanish fishing vessel was arrested. On 29 January, fishermen demonstrated at the border, preventing movement through it. We protested to the Spanish authorities about that. On 3 February, the fishermen and the Chief Minister of Gibraltar reached an agreement that satisfied them both, building on the understanding we had reached with Spain. Those new arrangements have been working well in practice.

The Spanish Government were unhappy that the Chief Minister of Gibraltar had struck a deal locally. We began to see unjustifiably long delays at the border. We have protested to the Spanish authorities. The Spanish Foreign Minister has also talked about the possibility of refusing to accept Gibraltar driving licences, and has speculated about banning civil overflights to and from Gibraltar. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary has today spoken to the Chief Minister of Gibraltar to assure him of our full support for Gibraltar on those points.

We shall continue to defend with determination Gibraltar's legitimate rights. We are today raising these matters with the Spanish Government through our ambassador in Madrid, and with the European Commission through our permanent representative in Brussels. We believe that it is in everyone's interests that relations between Spain, Britain and Gibraltar should improve; and that harassment is counterproductive.

Mr. Howard

In her answer, the Minister conspicuously failed to condemn unreservedly the latest Spanish threats to Gibraltar. Will she now do so? Will she confirm reports in this morning's newspapers that Spanish proposals for joint sovereignty over Gibraltar have been languishing in the Foreign Secretary's in-tray for more than a year? Is that another example of his not bothering to finish his paperwork? Should not those proposals have been rejected summarily as being wholly against the wishes of the people of Gibraltar? Will she also confirm this morning's reports that for several days, the Foreign Secretary has been trying in vain on his mobile phone to speak to his opposite number? We have heard enough about farce and failure at the Foreign Office during the past few days, but that really takes the biscuit.

Will the Minister tell us whether the protests to which she referred in her reply have been made at ambassadorial or ministerial level? If the former, does not it send entirely the wrong signal about the seriousness with which we take these matters? Can she give details of the agreement that was reached between the Foreign Secretary and his counterpart in October, which she conspicuously failed to supply when she responded on 4 February to my written question on this topic?

Does my right hon. Friend recall the way in which the Government were, on their own account, duped by the Spanish Government in negotiations on the treaty of Amsterdam? Does she recall the Foreign Secretary's U-turn and surrender in negotiations on Spanish entry into the integrated military command of NATO? Is not the whole pattern of this Government's dealings with Spain one of equivocation, retreat and surrender? Will she now display the resolve and determination that are overdue and necessary to deal with this matter?

Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover)

You can always trust him to go over the top.

Ms Quin

My hon. Friend is quite right.

It is of some regret to me that the right hon. and learned Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Mr. Howard) has dealt with an issue that has so often commanded cross-party agreement in such a manner. All parties in the House have supported the Gibraltar constitution; we support it very strongly. Indeed, I have spoken with and appreciate the work of some of my Conservative predecessors on this issue, including Lord Garel-Jones and, of course, Lord Hurd, when he was Foreign Secretary. Unfortunately, the right hon. and learned Gentleman seems to disagree with his predecessors as well as engaging in puerile attacks on us.

The right hon. and learned Gentleman asked several questions, with which I should like to deal. I want to stress first that, overall, we have a good relationship with Spain, as has been evident in many recent initiatives, including the statements issued by the two Prime Ministers on a range of European and employment issues. However, at the same time, we have pursued very vigorously with our Spanish counterparts the need to regulate properly fishing activity around Gibraltar, and to ensure that border delays are kept to a minimum and the Spanish authorities respect the position of the people of Gibraltar.

The right hon. and learned Gentleman seems, somehow, to want it both ways—breathing fire and brimstone on the one hand, and telling us that we must sort things out on the other. We are confident that we have put enormous effort into resolving this situation. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I have worked with both the Governor and the Chief Minister of Gibraltar to look at ways of resolving the situation. We therefore welcomed the agreement that the Chief Minister concluded with the fishermen because we believed that it built on our understanding with Spain. We stick very strongly to that point of view.

The right hon. and learned Gentleman rather astonishingly asked what we were doing about the situation, and tried to pretend that we were doing nothing, even though, in my statement, I announced the two initiatives that we have taken today with the Spanish Government and the European Commission. He seemed to avoid that completely.

The right hon. and learned Gentleman also asked about the October agreement. He ought to know that that agreement was largely an affirmation of traditional fishing practices in that area, which between 1991 and 1997 had worked well and to the benefit of both sides. When that harmonious traditional activity was undermined by the presence of extra vessels, action was taken. We welcomed the arrest in January of the vessel that was clearly violating the understanding that we had reached with Spain. As I said, we believed that the agreement concluded by the Chief Minister was greatly to be welcomed and provided a way forward. I cannot think offhand of a word that means the opposite of statesmanship, but whatever it is, it certainly applies to the right hon. and learned Gentleman.

Mr. Ted Rowlands (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Have not the actions of the Spanish authorities breached European law? If so, what specific action will the Government take?

Ms Quin

Indeed, European law is the reason for our approach today to the President of the European Commission. The threat not to accept Gibraltar's driving licences directly contravenes the relevant EU directive, so we intend urgently to pursue the matter with the Commission. It is our understanding that the relevant EU directive would be breached if the Spanish authorities refused to accept those driving licences.

Mr. David Heath (Somerton and Frome)

Are not the actions of the Spanish Government in this affair entirely unacceptable, particularly in view of the successful negotiation and resolution of the fishing dispute? Are not those actions particularly ironic on the part of a state with enclaves of its own in north Africa, and do they not undermine the more constructive overtures by the Spanish Government in recent years? Will the Minister continue, as she has been doing, to make it clear to Spain that Gibraltar's future will be based on the wishes of Gibraltarians, not crude bullying? Will she work to assure the status of Gibraltar within the European Union? Lastly, will she seek ways to provide proper representation of Gibraltar in the European Parliament?

Ms Quin

I welcome the thrust of the hon. Gentleman's questions, which was a good deal more constructive than that of the official Opposition spokesman, the right hon. and learned Member for Folkestone and Hythe. We believe that the Spanish action is unacceptable and, importantly, counterproductive. There is a great deal to be gained by co-operation between Gibraltar and, in particular, the neighbouring regions of Spain. Such actions by the centre rather undermine the cause of that co-operation, which we hold dear.

Mr. David Winnick (Walsall, North)

Leaving aside the characteristic attitude of the shadow Foreign Secretary, is it not deplorable that a Spanish Government are reverting to the provocative attitude of the Franco regime? When Spain became a democracy, one hoped that its attitude would be very different. If Spain takes the view, which I understand, that it wants closer relations with Gibraltar, surely it must work in such a way as to persuade the majority of people in Gibraltar that that should be the case. At the moment, all the evidence reveals that 98 per cent. of them want to stay as they are. I hope that the position of the House is to defend the right of the people of Gibraltar to do precisely what they want—the right to self-determination.

Ms Quin

My hon. Friend makes valid points and I agree with his approach. Certainly in the post-colonial world, the wishes and consent of the governed are absolutely paramount in any constitutional arrangements. That is clearly spelt out in the Gibraltar constitution, and the Government hold very firmly to that commitment. It is obviously right to say that any change in Gibraltar's status could be granted only if it had the wholehearted consent of Gibraltarians. That is why persuasion and a policy of friendship and openness are by far the most successful approach, particularly as we are all partners in the European Union and other European organisations.

Sir Teddy Taylor (Rochford and Southend, East)

The House and the people of Gibraltar were told in 1972 that the agonies that they suffered in 1967 could not be repeated because of what were called the tight rules and strict procedures of the European Union. Now that Spain is breaking the law on frontier control, and threatening to break the law on passports and driving licences, will the Minister say exactly what their friends in Brussels can do? Is it not a little silly to talk about directives when Spain is ignoring dozens of directives and having legal proceedings taken against it in 25 cases? Will the Minister tell the people of Gibraltar what Europe can do?

Finally, will the Minister at least give the assurance—I am sure that she will—that the Government will not let down or sell out the people of Gibraltar, and that in no way will they allow Gibraltar to be put under the rule of Spain against the people's wishes?

Ms Quin

In response to the hon. Gentleman's last point, I hope he will agree that I, my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary and the Government generally have given that assurance on many occasions. Indeed, the Prime Minister gave that assurance only last week in response to a question from the hon. Gentleman at Prime Minister's Question Time.

There are all kinds of ways in which EU directives have been broken. We can have legal recourse to redress. However, we believe that by far the best route in the immediate future is to do what we are doing—to protest to the European Commission and ask it to remind Spain and other countries of their responsibilities under directives by which they have agreed to be bound.

Dr. Norman A. Godman (Greenock and Inverclyde)

My right hon. Friend is right to emphasise that the Foreign Office will stick to the principle of consent. That principle underlines the Good Friday agreement. Madrid should be told that no change can take place outside the principle of consent.

The fishermen are not fishing out of purse-seiners such as those that operate out of Fraserburgh and Peterhead. They are small-boat fishermen, and it is right that that fisheries dispute is settled locally. Madrid should be told that the best form of fisheries management is regional management.

Ms Quin

My hon. Friend makes an important point—not surprisingly, with his knowledge of the fishing industry and the arrangements that work in practice. We believe that such a local agreement would reinforce the understanding that Britain and Spain had reached. We also believe that, understandably, the local agreement addresses effectively the concerns of local residents in Gibraltar. We are speaking of a fairly small area where fishing activity—especially if it takes place at night, as much of it does—can cause noise and aggravation to local residents, as well as not being in conformity with the understanding that had been reached.

I am glad that the local authorities and the police in Gibraltar took the action that they did, but I am also glad that the Chief Minister was able to back up that action with the agreement that was subsequently reached.

Mr. Michael Colvin (Romsey)

Some of us have a certain sympathy for the Minister of State, because we know that she is not getting the support that she should be getting from the Foreign Secretary.

With regard to the blockade of Gibraltar, which is a clear breach of EU law, does the right hon. Lady agree that that is a test of the European Commission's ability to enforce its own laws? With regard to the fishing and the welcome local agreement, what hope is there of the House of Assembly passing ordinances to enshrine that agreement in law? If that were done, would the Government agree to the dispatch of a fisheries protection vessel to the Admiralty waters around Gibraltar to ensure that that law is enforced?

Ms Quin

On the last point, if the agreement works as we hope it will, and if it is subsequently backed up by legislation in the Gibraltar Assembly in the way that we hope, a fisheries protection vessel would not be needed.

I am disappointed and somewhat surprised by the hon. Gentleman's initial comments. He, along with colleagues from all parties, has met me through the all-party Gibraltar group in the House. I have also met him as an officer of that group. On each occasion, I have stressed to him the way in which my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary and I have been working together on this issue. The hon. Gentleman knows that a great deal of effort has been put in by both of us, as well as by the Governor, to address the situation. Those comments do the hon. Gentleman no service.

Mr. Lindsay Hoyle (Chorley)

Is the Minister aware of the plight of three of my constituents who were trapped on the Spanish side of the customs, not being able to enter Spain nor being allowed to go back into Gibraltar, for 13 hours? As Spain was clearly in breach of European law, I hope that my right hon. Friend will seek compensation for my constituents and also for Gibraltar. Has not the time come for that fisheries protection vessel to go down to Gibraltar? Let us take off the kid gloves and ensure that we get the right deal for our people in the United Kingdom and Gibraltar.

Ms Quin

There certainly have been cases where people have suffered as a result of delays at the border. There was one instance of a husband trying to cross the border to reach his wife, who was about to give birth to their child, so there have been some human tragedies and human difficulties associated with the delays that have been imposed at the border. Some of the delays, it has to be said, were caused by the fishermen blockading the border rather than by the Spanish authorities. Given the different types of incidents that have occurred, it would be helpful if my hon. Friend wrote to me and I could then investigate the incident to which he referred.

Mr. Andrew Tyrie (Chichester)

I was there when the border was closed on 29 January and I saw some appalling behaviour by the Spanish police. Many people in Gibraltar believe that the British are engaged in negotiations to try to create some kind of counterweight to the Franco-German alliance through an Anglo-Spanish alliance, and that if Gibraltar has to pay the price for achieving that alliance, so be it.[Interruption.] That is what people in Gibraltar think.

Is the Minister aware that many people think that the line that the Government have been taking since they came to power is very naive and smacks of appeasement? Recent events still do not seem to have got across to the Foreign Office. The Spanish understand only strength; they do not understand polite reminders, via the European Commission, to obey directives. They are bullfighting; the Foreign Office is playing cricket. Is not the right thing to do in the fishing dispute to send a naval vessel capable of enforcing our rights and our sovereignty in our territorial waters?

Ms Quin

The hon. Gentleman's version is a caricature of events. He may have visited Gibraltar, but he is giving us a very selective account of events. His claims about the Foreign Office are completely incorrect. He was not in the Foreign Office when we were discussing these issues, so he cannot claim to have been there. Let me say clearly that there is nothing stealthy or underhand about our approach. If I have to say it again, I will do so: we remain fully committed to the pledge in the Gibraltar constitution.

Mr. Bill Rammell (Harlow)

Does the Minister agree that, in reality, there is consensus on the way that we should deal with this situation? Attempts by Conservative Members to play politics with the issue do them an enormous disservice. Had Labour Members conducted themselves in such a way in opposition, they would rightly have been accused of irresponsibility. On the substance of the issue, will she comment on—and, I hope, refute—the spurious allegations that Gibraltar has contributed towards the conflict by going against European Union directives?

Ms Quin

I strongly endorse my hon. Friend's comments. I should like the issue to be approached within a cross-party consensus, but I am certainly prepared to defend very strongly the Government's record on it. I am grateful to him for mentioning EU directives, because we have received no official communication from Spain claiming that Gibraltar is in breach of various EU directives. Fifty-one are listed, and that list has been sent to the Commission. That allegation is ill-founded.

I have information that, of the 51 directives listed, 31 have been transposed by Gibraltar. Of the remaining 20, seven are not applicable because of Gibraltar's EU status, and two do not require transposition, because Gibraltar does not have the relevant facilities. A further seven directives are in the final stages of transposition, with draft legislation complete or almost complete. Gibraltar's record is extremely satisfactory in that respect. Given the commitments that the legislative Assembly has, and the size of Gibraltar, it has done a good job in transposing those directives into legislation.

Mr. Christopher Gill (Ludlow)

The Minister will be aware of the popular perception in Gibraltar that the British Government are not prepared to stand up to the Spanish Government. Will she assure the House that the Foreign Office will abandon its supine policy of doing nothing that upsets the Spanish and will recognise its true responsibility, which is to protect British interests and British subjects?

Ms Quin

I cannot recommend that the Foreign Office abandons a supine policy that it did not adopt in the first place.

Mr. John Wilkinson (Ruislip-Northwood)

As we are one of the largest contributors to the European Union and Spain is the biggest net recipient by far, would it not concentrate the Spanish mind wonderfully if Her Majesty's Government said that they would cut off the supply to Brussels?

Ms Quin

The Government would be unwise to deal bilaterally with issues that are the subject of negotiation among the 15 member countries of the European Union. As the hon. Gentleman knows, we are currently negotiating in the European Union on Agenda 2000. We are strongly defending our interests in those negotiations, and we are promoting new ideas and proposals for reform of the European Union.

Mr. Howard

Will the Minister reply to just one of the questions that I put to her earlier, which she completely ignored? Why has the Foreign Secretary not yet rejected the proposals from Spain for joint sovereignty over Gibraltar?

Ms Quin

We have a framework for discussing issues with Spain, which was adopted by the previous Government, and we have continued that practice. Those proposals will be examined within that framework without, in any sense, undermining the commitment in the Gibraltar constitution to which many hon. Members on both sides of the House have rightly referred.