HC Deb 10 February 1999 vol 325 cc437-44

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Betts.]

11.27 pm
Mr. David Winnick (Walsall, North)

Like all my colleagues, I am strenuously opposed to all forms of racial and religious discrimination, hence the way in which we have long campaigned—certainly in the Labour party—for tolerance, and non-discriminatory policies and practices for minorities of all kinds, including in Britain in the post-war years in particular, Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims.

I asked for this debate to outline the position for Christians on the Indian sub-continent and to ask the British Government to let the Indian and Pakistani authorities know of our deep and continuing concern about what has been happening there recently. In raising this matter, I recognise—as we all do—that India has maintained democracy while facing far greater social problems than we face in Britain.

However, more recently, some extremists in India have become more intolerant towards Christians. I shall describe a particularly brutal and murderous case. On 23 January, Graham Staines, a 55-year-old missionary, was murdered with his two sons, Philip, 10, and Timothy, 8, when their vehicle was torched. As they tried desperately to get out of the vehicle, the mob ensured that that was impossible—they were burnt alive. Mr. Staines had worked with leper patients for more than 30 years in India. Surely, no one can dispute the good work that he did for so many people in that time.

On Sunday, three days ago, two Christian teenagers—a girl and a boy—were murdered and another teenager seriously injured in an eastern state in India. Sadly, those are not isolated incidents. All the evidence points the finger at various extremist groups, some of which are connected with the ruling Bharatiya Janata party.

Dr. Ashok Kumar (Middlesbrough, South and Cleveland, East)

Does my hon. Friend accept that India is a secular state, and that it respects all religions equally and allows everyone to worship equally in that spirit? That has been the case for hundreds of years, and that has been the spirit since independence.

Mr. Winnick

Yes, and that is why it is all the more sad that these incidents and tragedies have occurred. I accept what my hon. Friend said, and I am sure that he will agree that, against that background, it is unfortunate that such extremist actions have been taken. They are, in the main, carried out by extremist Hindus who do not represent the vast majority of people of their religion in that country.

Graham Staines's widow has accused an extremist group connected with the ruling party of being responsible for what happened to her husband and children. It is known by the initials RSS and is sometimes referred to as a national volunteer corps of the BJP.

I am referring to extremist elements; this is not a criticism of the Hindu religion. Indeed, my hon. Friends the Members for Halifax (Mrs. Mahon) and for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) raised a point of order today about extremist Christians. We should be concerned about extremists anywhere, whatever their religion or even if they have no religion. In India, an extremist group believes that its role is to create an atmosphere of hatred against the Christian minority. That is why I am raising this matter.

Mr. Tony Colman (Putney)

The debate is about the position across the Indian sub-continent. Will my hon. Friend join with me in condemning the persecution of the Ahmadiyya Muslims in Pakistan? I am sure that the House universally condemns that action.

Mr. Winnick

Yes, indeed. I condemn all forms of persecution and intolerance. I shall refer briefly to Pakistan, because the subject of my debate is the Indian sub-continent.

The BJP is the ruling party in India. It is a nationalist, right-wing, Hindu-based party which came to power two years ago. Since that time, there have been attacks on churches, convents, schools and other properties belonging to the Christian community. In November last year, the RSS attacked a church in a village in south India. Members of the congregation were severely beaten up, and the pastor had to be taken to hospital. In September last year, four nuns belonging to the Foreign Missionary Sisters were gang raped by thugs in a state in central India. Those ugly incidents cause the deepest concern in the international community, and certainly in Britain.

There have been more than 100 reported incidents against Christians in India in the past two years. It is a matter of deep concern that a pogrom atmosphere has been building up against the Christian minority, particularly in the past two years. The position is serious enough without exacerbating it, but sometimes the authorities in India show indifference when dealing with the culprits.

Mr. John Randall (Uxbridge)

The hon. Gentleman said that he would refer to Pakistan, and the hon. Member for Putney (Mr. Colman) has mentioned the situation there. Does he agree that, whereas the problem in India is caused by extremists, when it comes to Pakistan, certain laws have been passed by the state that unfairly discriminate against minorities, particularly the Christian minority?

Mr. Winnick

Certainly I agree, and I shall refer to that later.

The brutal killing of Mr. Staines and his two sons prompted condemnation from senior Ministers in India. I understand that an inquiry is to be set up, and I welcome that.

Let me say, particularly to my hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough, South and Cleveland, East (Dr. Kumar), who intervened earlier, that India has a good record—leaving aside the controversial and complex problem of Kashmir—of general tolerance of religious minorities. That was the record for many years—before Britain was involved in any way, during British rule and certainly during most of the post-independence period, owing to good work on the part of the Indian authorities, which has been recognised in this country.

Let me illustrate the way in which the position has changed. Between 1964 and 1996, 38 cases of violence—38 cases in 32 years—were reported against Christians in India. Last year alone, 136 were reported. Some say that is the result of the BJP's winning the election two years ago. They say that the extremists—not necessarily Ministers in the Indian Government, but extremists who are affiliated to the BJP or support it in elections—feel that they have more freedom to demonstrate their intolerance, and to whip up hatred of the Christian minority, than they had before. Christians constitute about 2.5 per cent. of the Indian population.

Reference has been made to the position in Pakistan. I believe that the blasphemy laws in that country are often used purely for malicious and arbitrary reasons. Given such laws, it is not difficult for those who have a grudge against a neighbour or are in debt to deal with the grudge, or not pay the debt, by reporting the person concerned to the authorities under the blasphemy laws. I believe that, as with the position with Hindus in India, most Muslims in Pakistan oppose the practices that I have mentioned. It is unfortunate that those blasphemy laws in Pakistan can be used, and sometimes are used, to persecute the small Christian minority. I should add that Amnesty International has made clear its disquiet about the position in Pakistan.

It is not a question—I do not suppose that any of my hon. Friends is surprised to hear this—of trying to take India's side against that of Pakistan, or of taking the side of Pakistan against that of India. It is simply a question of making it clear that we are totally opposed to discrimination and intolerance. We have been against that in our country, even at times when such opposition has not been very popular. Even when it might have lost us votes, we have made our position clear and have stood by our principles. If that is so in this country, we have a duty and a responsibility to defend minorities elsewhere, and we shall continue to do so, even if at times that causes some disquiet in the Indian high commission or the Pakistan high commission, or among others here who feel that we are attacking their native country. Be that as it may, we work on the basis of certain principles, and will continue to do so.

Mr. Keith Vaz (Leicester, East)

My hon. Friend mentioned the Indian high commissioner. The commissioner has written to him stating that the Government condemn the attacks. What more can the Indian Government do?

Mr. Winnick

I shall ask the Minister to make it perfectly clear that the British Government are very concerned about the change in the position in India, which I have already explained, and want the Indian authorities to do all that they can, first, to bring the culprits to justice and, secondly, not to allow an atmosphere in which it is easy for some thugs to attack the Christian minority. That is more or less what we want in our country and have worked for, as my hon. Friend knows.

Mr. Simon Hughes (Southwark, North and Bermondsey)

Another suggestion might be helpful and find acceptance with both the Indian authorities and those in Pakistan and Bangladesh, which have had trouble with several religious minorities, not just Christians. The Commonwealth might be able to facilitate some way to support Governments in upholding secular states and rights of minorities, as well as bilateral Government relations. The Commonwealth could be helpful both to Her Majesty's Government and to the Governments of our friends in the Indian sub-continent.

Mr. Winnick

I accept that point, but India and Pakistan are as independent as this country and, if they really have the will to do so, they can deal with the matters that cause us deep concern.

I reject the notion that, in raising the issue, I am anti-Indian or anti-Pakistani—nothing of the kind. The only thing I am anti in these matters is prejudice, whether that occurs here or abroad.

I understand that missionary work can sometimes cause offence. I accept that some extremist missionaries, usually—perhaps not surprisingly—from the United States, go about their business in a way that can cause disquiet and offence, but, often, the attacks and the atmosphere that are being created are directed against law-abiding people in India who happen to be Christians and who are seen as a soft target. I understand that the British Government have expressed some protest or concern. As I have said, I hope that they will continue to make known the matters that cause us concern, which I have been speaking about.

I want to keep my remarks brief, so I say simply that I do not believe that what I have said would have been disputed by the founding fathers of both India and Pakistan. They wanted to establish independent countries where, as has been mentioned, religious minorities would have the same rights as the religious majority. They wanted tolerance. To a large extent, in the post-independence period, that has been achieved, perhaps particularly in India. Therefore, in raising these issues, it is necessary for us to recognise that human rights are a cause for us in all countries.

As my hon. Friend the Minister knows, earlier today, there was a debate on human rights for women. We want human rights for all. We want people who belong to a religion to have rights and those who do not adhere to a religion to have the same rights. It causes me regret that I have had to raise the matter, but I was right to do so. I will listen carefully to what the Minister says in response.

11.43 pm
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr. Tony Lloyd)

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick) on winning the ballot and securing the debate. His record on issues relating to human rights, freedoms of religious minorities and minorities generally compares with that of any hon. Member. We owe him a debt of gratitude for giving the House an opportunity to discuss a serious issue that, interestingly, has provoked several interventions, something that does not normally happen in an Adjournment debate at this time of night. It is a matter that causes concern here and, of course, in the Indian sub-continent.

We must deplore religious intolerance, whether it occurs in this country or anywhere else, but it is particularly disturbing that we are debating intolerance in the Indian sub-continent because Britain still has many ties with it. Hon. Members who are present tonight represent thousands of people whose ties with India and Pakistan are still intimate and will be for the indefinite future. Therefore, it is in a spirit not of criticism but of genuine fellowship and concern that we express our sorrow at the reports of attacks on religious minorities in those countries.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough, South and Cleveland, East (Dr. Kumar) said, India has been seen for many years as a model of a successful, religiously diverse and democratic state. It has won high standing throughout the world for the respect for, and even celebration of, religious diversity there. India is one of the great countries of the world and has more than 950 million people, so diversity is inherent in India's identity. Anybody who has travelled across even small parts of India knows that its diversity is enormous and one would normally expect to see such diversity spread across a continent, rather than in one country. The majority of the population are Hindu, but people of all faiths co-exist there, including Christians, Muslims, Sikhs and Buddhists.

The concept of an Indian state in which all religions flourish was central to the thinking of the founders of modern India, including Mahatma Gandhi, who wrote: Indian culture is neither Hindu, Islamic or any other, wholly. It is a fusion of all". Those who grew up when I did certainly felt that the influence of Gandhi and Nehru, and their part in establishing that secular India—home to all its people—was an important statement to the whole world.

After independence, the right to freedom of religion was enshrined in India's constitution. Article 25 of the constitution states: all persons are equally entitled to freedom of conscience and the right freely to profess, practise and propagate religion. That is one of the most unambiguous statements of commitment to religious freedom to be found in any country's legal system. It is therefore uncharacteristic for India to witness attacks on religious minorities such as those to which my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, North has referred. It is all the more disturbing that so many incidents have been reported in the past few months.

My hon. Friend referred to several examples and I shall repeat some of them to demonstrate the gravity of the attacks. Last July, there were reports of the burning of bibles and attacks on staff at Christian schools in Gujarat. Muslims have also been targeted. We heard reports that, at the end of July, 350 Muslims fled from a village in Gujarat, fearing attack after two Hindu girls had eloped with Muslim boys. My hon. Friend referred to the reports of the gang rape of a group of nuns in Madhya Pradesh and the subsequent looting of the convent.

At the end of the year, we received reports that, on Christmas day, a rally was held in Gujarat to demonstrate against Christian conversions. My hon. Friend referred to the inflammatory climate and the speeches made against Christians, which led to vehicles being burnt and stones thrown, culminating in injury to three Christians. In another area of the same state, also on Christmas day, reports state that three churches were attacked and a Christian school set on fire, resulting in injuries to the principal. Attempts were made to destroy another school. We understand from press reports that, two days later, four more churches were attacked in the same state.

My hon. Friend referred to one of the most horrific events—the brutal murders of Graham Staines and his two sons. We know that those murders were committed by a mob, apparently angered by missionary activity in the state of Orissa. As my hon. Friend pointed out, it is bizarre that Mr. Staines had spent the bulk of his adult life working for the most marginalised people in Orissa, the victims of leprosy. I must simply record that we read of such attacks with dismay. For most of us, it is almost beyond belief that two young children were murdered as my hon. Friend described.

My hon. Friend referred also to reports being made as recently as this week of the murders of two Christian teenagers in another district of Orissa and an attack on another youth in the same incident.

The Indian United Christians Forum for Human Rights has claimed that the number of attacks against Christian institutions in 1998 was more than the total number between 1964 and 1997. The claim supports the statistics provided by my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, North.

We have to ask ourselves—not to minimise the situation, as we must not try to minimise such horrendous attacks—whether, in such disparate parts of the Indian sub-continent, there is a single root cause of the attacks. The statistics in a country of 950 million people might be brought into perspective if compared with our own statistics. I therefore tell the House that, although we must be forthright in condemnation, we must not stigmatise all of India because of attacks on Christians in some parts of it. It would not be fair or acceptable to do so.

Mr. Winnick

I am sure that the terrible attacks and tragedies that have occurred have been condemned by the overwhelming majority of Indians; I have not the slightest doubt about that. We are dealing with extremist groups which have been encouraged by the election of a very right-wing, nationalist, Hindu-based party that is known for its intolerance. We have to recognise that unfortunate fact.

Mr. Lloyd

I should make it clear that there is no difference between my hon. Friend and myself in our view that India generally, and the Indian population generally, are not guilty of the crimes.

The attack on Graham Staines and his sons has caused anger and anguish in India itself. Significantly, condemnation by the press and major political parties has been unanimous. We should also establish the fact that protest has come first and foremost within India. As my hon. Friend said, the Government of India have responded with a clear denunciation of the attacks and an appeal for a return to India's traditional values of tolerance.

I should like publicly to welcome the forthright statement by the Indian president, President Narayanan, that condemned all attacks on religious minorities and called the murder of Graham Staines and his sons a "barbarous killing" and a monumental aberration from the traditions of tolerance and humanity for which India is known". I also commend to the House the address by the Indian Prime Minister on the anniversary of Gandhi's death, last month, in which he undertook to protect all sections of the people, irrespective of their gender, caste and faith". Those are important statements by the most senior figures in the Indian Government.

Mr. Stephen Pound (Ealing, North)

As my hon. Friend moves towards the end of his reply, he has been concentrating on India. However, the subject of the Adjournment is the Indian sub-continent. Although I am sure that he was about to deal with other parts of the sub-continent, will he accept my assurance that, like many other hon. Members, I have a great many people from Pakistan in my constituency who have Christian families in Pakistan who are today—now—applying for asylum in the United Kingdom because of a real fear of persecution on solely religious grounds? There are at least 1.3 million Christians in Pakistan, possibly more. Like many other hon. Members, I am greatly concerned about the increase in the number of people applying for asylum. I am sure that my hon. Friend was planning to mention the issue, and I apologise for perhaps anticipating him.

Mr. Lloyd

If my hon. Friend will bear with me, I shall deal in a moment with the situation in Pakistan.

Over several months, the Government have clearly stated our concerns to the Indian authorities. During his visit to India last November, my right hon. Friend the Minister of State expressed our concerns about attacks on religious minorities to the Indian Home Minister and urged that action be taken to restore the confidence of the Christian minority in India.

My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary recently raised the issue of the position of religious minorities in India with the national security adviser and principal secretary to the Indian Prime Minister.

Furthermore, last year, the high commission raised our concerns with senior figures in the Bharatiya Janata party, including the general secretary and the vice-president. In the context of the remarks made by my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, North, it is important that I should make that clear.

I am pleased to report that there has been some progress in the Indian authorities' response to the incidents. The human rights commission has been invited to investigate the murders of Graham Staines and his family. That is in addition to the formal commission of inquiry headed by the Indian Supreme Court Justice, which has been asked to report to the Indian Home Minister. We look forward to reading the findings of this and other inquiries. Suspects have already been arrested, and we very much hope that all the perpetrators will be brought to justice.

The incidents in Gujarat are being investigated by the National Commission for Minorities, and suspects have been taken into custody. I understand that arrests have been made in the case of the rape of the nuns in Madhya Pradesh in September. We are encouraged by those developments, and by the determination of the Indian authorities to bear down against the perpetrators of this evil in Indian society.

The position of minorities, including Christians and Ahmadiyya Muslims, in Pakistan is also a cause for concern. Like India, Pakistan's founding fathers were wholly committed to religious tolerance. The founder of Pakistan, Muhammad Ali Jinnah, said: You may belong to any religion, caste or creed … There is no discrimination, no distinction between one community and another". Jinnah described himself as the Protector General of the Hindu minority in Pakistan". Article 20 of Pakistan's constitution makes it clear that there is a right to practise, profess and propagate religion, and that there should be the right to establish, maintain and manage religious institutions. There are constitutional protections, but the rights of minorities there are abused.

Many hon. Members will have read a disturbing article called "Beyond Belief' which detailed various examples of discrimination against Christians. Accusations of blasphemy can and have led to death sentences. In the most widely known case, Ayub Masih, a Pakistani Christian, was accused of blasphemy and sentenced to death after intervening in a dispute with a Muslim man who wanted to seize land from his parents. Masih was shot and injured as he was being led to court. The Sharia Bill, currently before Pakistan's Senate, has given rise to further concerns over the position of non-Muslims in Pakistan.

Mr. Colman

Will my hon. Friend give way?

Mr. Lloyd

No, I will not, if my hon. Friend will forgive me.

My right hon. Friend the Minister of State has completed a three-day visit to Pakistan. I can tell the House that, on Monday, he raised the issue of religious minorities with Pakistan's Minister of Law. He told the Minister of the great concern in the UK. The Minister made the point that there was concern in Pakistan as well.

The motion having been made after Ten o'clock, and the debate having continued for half an hour, MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

Adjourned at three minutes to Twelve midnight.