HC Deb 09 December 1999 vol 340 cc973-5
5. Mr. Desmond Swayne (New Forest, West)

If he will make a statement on his policy on metrication. [100528]

The Minister for Energy and Competitiveness in Europe (Mrs. Helen Liddell)

The Government are taking forward the policy adopted by successive Governments since 1965 of overseeing the change to metric units as the primary system of measurement in the United Kingdom. A report by my Department on the progress since 1965, particularly regarding goods sold by weight or measure, was placed in the Library of the House on 23 July.

Mr. Swayne

That is most regrettable. After the end of this month, Madam Speaker, if you were to go to a market trader and ask him for a pound of apples, and he indulged you by weighing out a pound of appels and selling them to you, he would be committing a criminal offence. What measures has the Minister taken, what effort has she expended and to what lengths did she go to extend the life of the current derogation that we enjoy in respect of the sale of loose goods?

Mrs. Liddell

We are at the dawn of a new century, but sometimes I think that the hon. Gentleman, instead of looking forward to a knowledge-based society in the 21st century, would rather cling to the 19th century. The House recommended metrication in 1862, and the changes that are to take place at the end of December were introduced in 1994 by the previous Government—a Government whom, I understand, the hon. Gentleman supported. However, given that the campaign that he now supports is being promoted by the UK Independence party, I wonder whether we are seeing more divisions among Conservative Members than have hitherto been apparent.

There have been discussions with the European Union about the 10-year extension. I say to the hon. Gentleman, however, that 99 per cent. of retailers are ready to switch on 31 December 1999. It is regrettable that the hon. Gentleman has not got his act together sufficiently to enable him to switch on that date.

Mr. John Cryer (Hornchurch)

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is genuine unhappiness, particularly among traders in my area, about enforced metrication? Is she further aware that the crucial directive that enforced metrication, which is still playing out today, was issued in December 1979, and that translating that directive into statute was one of the early actions of the Thatcher Government? The directive was further amended 10 years later and again in 1994. The brunt of the responsibility for metrication should therefore be borne by the Conservatives, not Labour.

Mrs. Liddell

My hon. Friend does well in pointing out the rather hypocritical position adopted by some of the opponents of metrication. I recognise the anxieties of some—particularly small—retailers about the change. That is why the Department of Trade and Industry has conducted an extensive publicity campaign. Trading standards officers stand ready to give any assistance required. We are encouraged by the fact that almost 99 per cent. of all retailers are prepared for the switch on 31 December.

Mr. A. J. Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed)

Does the right hon. Lady recognise how inappropriate it is to use penalties which were designed to deal with fraud against small businesses which offer their customers some freedom of choice in how loose and bulk goods are measured? In recognising the difficulties presented by what happened under the previous Government, will she take any remaining opportunities to achieve some continuing security from prosecution for fraud for small business men who are trying to help their customers to deal with a difficult situation?

Mrs. Liddell

The right hon. Gentleman raises a point that has been raised on many occasions in this Parliament. Indeed, since the Magna Carta there has been legislation to ensure that legally defined units of measurement are available. If we do not have a means of ensuring that, customers could be given short measure. It is important to protect consumers, and we recognise that we must.

At the same time, we are giving considerable assistance to retailers to ensure that they are able to offer the service from 31 December. Indeed, anyone who asks for a pound of apples, as the hon. Member for New Forest, West (Mr. Swayne) suggested, will be in no difficulty whatever. The consumer will be able to ask for goods in imperial measure, and retailers will be able to measure in metric amounts. Everything possible has been done to allow the switch to be as easy as possible. This has been a long time coming and there have been plenty of opportunities for preparation. I remind Opposition Members that it was the previous Government who introduced the measures in 1994.

Mr. Nick Gibb (Bognor Regis and Littlehampton)

Is the Minister aware—it seems from her answers that she is not—of the confusion and difficulty faced by many elderly shoppers and, indeed, by people who are not so elderly, in buying cheese, fish or fruit in kilograms? She says that responsibility lies with the previous Government, but they introduced a 10-year derogation in 1989, which expires at the end of this year. Her Government have been in office since 1997, just when negotiations should have started again. Why did not her Department even bother to request from the EU another 10-year derogation on loose and bulk sales? Is this yet another example of this Government's weak approach to fighting for British interests in Europe?

Mrs. Liddell

The hon. Gentleman should not write his notes the night before; he should listen to what is said. In 1994, his Government introduced the order that comes into effect on 31 December 1999. I have also pointed out to the hon. Member for New Forest, West that the consumer—elderly or otherwise—will be able to go into any shop and ask for goods in imperial measures.

I was intrigued this morning to read in The Times an article attacking the measure by someone who knows Immanuel Kant rather better than the closing days of the 20th century. He suggests that the imperial measure is the lingua franca of both recipe and school books. It must be a long time since he has cooked a dinner, because recipe books give weights in both imperial and metric measures, as do school books nowadays.