THE EQUALITY COMMISSION FOR NORTHERN IRELAND (Hansard, 18 November 1998)

§ Mr. Paul Murphy
I beg to move, That this House agrees with the Lords in the said amendment.

Mr. Deputy Speaker
With this, it will be convenient to discuss Lords amendments Nos. 138 to 143 and 281 to 323.

§ Mr. Murphy
This large group of amendments deals with equality. Like human rights, that is an important 1067 feature of the Belfast agreement, and has given rise to intensive debate and scrutiny at all stages of the Bill in the Commons and in the Lords. The amendments make the Bill more effective, and bring it more clearly into line with the agreement.
When the Bill was under discussion in this House, much attention was paid to the provisions that sought to create a new equality commission and a statutory obligation on the public sector to have due regard to the need to promote equality of opportunity. Since the summer, I have discussed those issues with hon. Members on both sides of the House and with all political parties that are represented in the Assembly. In addition, I have held discussions with SACHR, the chairs of existing equality bodies and, on several occasions, delegations from other bodies and trade unions.
Those discussions have been most productive. They have led to many Government amendments in the other place, which we now have to consider. The Government have shown themselves to be flexible in responding to constructive suggestions. We believe that the amendments greatly improve the equality of opportunity provisions, and we are grateful to all who have contributed to the consultative process.
Amendments to clauses 58 and schedule 10 amend the powers and procedures of the new unified equality commission. They also give persons serving on the commission the titles of chief commissioner, deputy chief commissioner and commissioner.
Amendments Nos. 291 and 292 will require a copy of the commission's annual report to be laid before Parliament as well as the Assembly. In addition, the report will have to give details of steps taken during the year by the commission and by other public authorities to promote equality of opportunity. The Government expect other public authorities to co-operate fully with the equality commission in the preparation of that aspect of the annual report, providing the necessary information on their compliance with the new statutory obligation.
I turn to the group of amendments on clause 60 and schedule 10, which deal with the equality of opportunity obligation. Although the principle of a statutory obligation was endorsed by the Good Friday agreement and has been widely accepted by non-governmental organisations, trade unions and others in Northern Ireland, there has been considerable debate about the detail of the proposal; it was the subject of much discussion in Committee. I gave undertakings to consider a number of issues that had been raised and particularly to see whether the Bill could take on board the substantive points of the two new clauses that had been tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Hull, North and other hon. Members.
There has been much consultation on those matters during recent months. The amendments to clause 60 and schedule 10 that were passed by the other place reflect the outcome of that consultation, providing for much more detail in equality schemes about arrangements for assessing and consulting on the impact of policies. In making decisions on policies, such assessments and 1068 consultation must be taken into account. Five-yearly reviews of equality schemes will be required. These amendments integrate the substance of the Committee stage new clauses 4 and 5 that we considered earlier in the year.
Amendments Nos. 141 to 143 to clause 60 substitute a new definition of "public authority" for purposes of the clause. They make it clear that the statutory obligation is not confined to Northern Ireland public authorities, but can also include UK Departments such as the Northern Ireland Office, and UK-wide public authorities that carry out functions relating to Northern Ireland.
Amendments Nos. 305 and 306 directly impose a requirement on public authorities, whether they exist now or come into being in the future, to prepare equality schemes. In Committee, it had been argued that the initial request from the commission to prepare a scheme was not fully consistent with the agreement. That issue has now been addressed.
Apart from equality schemes, the other main aspect of schedule 10 is the arrangement whereby the commission can challenge a public authority's equality scheme and investigate complaints. Amendments Nos. 316, 318 and 322 require the Assembly to be notified at relevant stages of that process. Amendment No. 323 creates a special procedure for dealing with problematic schemes and complaints where they concern the Northern Ireland Office and other UK Government Departments. That is to avoid a situation where the Secretary of State must reach a decision or issue a direction in a case involving her Department or that of a Cabinet colleague.
Those are the significant amendments relating to clause 60 and schedule 10. We believe they have greatly improved the Bill and will impose significant obligations on the public sector in Northern Ireland, with real change in the culture of administration.

§ Mr. McNamara
I thank my hon. Friend the Minister for the progress that has been made. He has gone as far as possible towards meeting the points that we made in Committee, and those made in another place. However, I should like him to confirm a couple of small points.
Where the commission still has power to make exemptions in regard to schemes, will the exemptions apply only when the body that is expected to produce a scheme is part of, or a subsidiary of, a larger body that will produce a scheme covering the subsidiary? I am thinking of, for example, a local authority and a committee, or sub-committee, of that authority. Will the only other exemption—in terms of public authorities—relate to notional circumstances in which a United Kingdom Department would be active in Northern Ireland, but the range and scope of its activity would be so small as to be negligible? Are those the only exemptions that my hon. Friend envisages?

§ Judy Mallaber (Amber Valley)
I thank my hon. Friend the Minister for his courtesy in listening to what we have said about the amendments that we tabled in Committee, and for the consultation in which he has engaged. I feel that the amendments bring the Bill into line with the Belfast agreement. 1069 For the record, may I ask my hon. Friend to confirm what was said by Lord Dubs in another place? Lord Dubs said: To clarify the position, it is the Government's intention that impact assessments under schedule 10 should relate to the whole range of a public authority's policy", not just to policies aimed at promoting equality of opportunity."—[Official Report, House of Lords, 11 November 1998; Vol. 594, c. 810.] Lord Dubs also said that, in the Government's view, nothing in the Bill renders unlawful what would be lawful affirmative action under the existing fair employment, equal opportunities and race relations law … The justification for affirmative actions is that they are necessary to correct existing disadvantage or imbalance in equality of opportunity. Lord Dubs added that the Government were confident that the clauses did not hinder affirmative actions when they were properly directed at promoting equality of opportunity."—[Official Report, House of Lords, 10 November 1998; Vol. 594, c. 713.]
It would be helpful to have that on the record.

§ Mr. Malcolm Moss (North-East Cambridgeshire)
It is welcome that, during the recess, the Minister was prepared to meet and consult many bodies that are involved in the equality issue. Will he tell us, however, whether all the bodies that will be dissolved under the legislation—the Fair Employment Commission for Northern Ireland, the Equal Opportunities Commission for Northern Ireland, the Commission for Racial Equality for Northern Ireland and the Northern Ireland Disability Council-are content with the proposals in the Lords amendments? Have all, or some, of those bodies some reservations? Do they feel that the Government's proposals will not achieve their ends?
Will the Minister confirm that working groups will be involved? If so, it would be helpful to know when those groups are expected to report to the Government, and whether the Minister envisages further change as a result of their activities.

§ Mr. Paul Murphy
My hon. Friend the Member for Hull, North (Mr. McNamara) referred to questions that he had raised about the exemption of public authorities from the requirement to prepare schemes. We intend the exemption to be used only in rare circumstances—for instance, when public authorities' activities in Northern Ireland are minimal, and the effort involved in preparing the scheme involved, and having it validated by the commission, would be disproportionate. In other circumstances, it might make sense to exempt a public authority. For instance, all sub-committees of district councils are defined as public authorities. Provided that their activities were fully covered by district councils' own equality schemes, an exemption could avoid each sub-committee having to draw up its own scheme.
11.45 pm
My hon. Friend the Member for Amber Valley (Judy Mallaber) mentioned affirmative action. Clause 60 in no way calls into question the ability of public authorities to take affirmative action in appropriate cases 1070 to correct disadvantage. Affirmative action in appropriate circumstances is an important method of combating inequality, and it is our firm intention that that should remain so. The clause does not call that into question, and does not render unlawful what would be lawful affirmative action under current anti-discrimination legislation.
Furthermore, clause 60 means that public authorities are bound to have regard to the need for affirmative action when considering their duty under the clause. An exemption for affirmative action is therefore unnecessary.
The hon. Member for North-East Cambridgeshire (Mr. Moss) mentioned the current status of the equality commission. As he knows, the four separate commissions in Northern Ireland—dealing with disability, fair employment, gender and race—have expressed various concerns about the future nature of the structures. Nevertheless—to be fair—the fair employment commission believed that the proposals provide the best option.
We received many representations from the bodies, and on a number of occasions I have met the chairs of all four commissions. The chairs, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I have agreed that an independent chair—Dr. Stringer, from Edinburgh—should be appointed. In the next couple of months, Dr. Stringer will go and work with the four commission chairs, examine the structures that we have to deal with and devise the best possible structure—which will be one that is accepted by all the commissions and by the wider community in Northern Ireland. The proposal seems now to be generally accepted by the commissions. I look forward to the report, which I hope will be available fairly speedily.