§ Mr. McLeishI beg to move amendment No. 133, in page 20, line 18, leave out from 'appoint' to end of line 19 and insert
`persons to be members of the staff of the Scottish Administration'.
§ Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst)With this, it will be convenient to discuss Government amendments Nos. 134 to 136, 146, 235 to 241, 246, 250, 252 to 255, 213, 216 and 217.
§ Mr. McLeishThe amendments are technical and clarifying—I shall explain them as quickly as possible, as I know that the House has yet to consider other important groups.
757 Government amendment No. 213 clarifies what is meant by the term "Scottish Administration". Government amendments Nos. 134, 146, 236, 238, 239, 189, 199, 216, 217 and 245 are consequential. The Scottish Administration is an umbrella concept to describe what is, in effect, Her Majesty's Government in Scotland in relation to matters that are not reserved. It is important that the definition is clear—Government amendment No. 213 puts beyond any doubt who belongs to the Scottish Administration.
The Scottish Administration is defined as the office holders in the Scottish Administration and their staff. Office holders in the Scottish Administration are defined as members of the Scottish Executive—that is the First Minister, the Scottish Ministers and the Law Officers—junior Scottish Ministers and holders of non-ministerial offices. Non-ministerial offices are defined as the Registrar-General of Births, Deaths and Marriages for Scotland, the Keeper of the Registers of Scotland, the Keeper of the Records of Scotland and other offices where the holders exercise functions that are conferred by an enactment and who are appointed by a member of the Scottish Executive—for example, the Accountant in Bankruptcy.
The definition of the Scottish Administration can be changed by an Order in Council, which will be subject to parliamentary control by this Parliament and the Scottish Parliament, to take account of any future developments. I urge hon. Members to support these technical but necessary amendments.
Government amendments Nos. 133 and 134 are designed to clarify the Government's policy that staff serving the Scottish Administration will be members of a unified home civil service. Amendment No. 133 makes it clear that Scottish Ministers may appoint not only staff in the Scottish Executive, but other staff of the Scottish Administration. Amendment No. 134 specifies that such staff and non-ministerial office holders of the Scottish Administration will be members of the home civil service.
Government amendment No. 135 is a technical amendment to ensure that Scottish Ministers have the same delegated powers as Ministers of the Crown to deal with superannuation schemes affecting staff of the Scottish Administration. Government amendment No. 136 avoids ambiguity by making it clear that the Act referred to in clause 47(8) is the Civil Service (Management Functions) Act 1992.
Government amendments Nos. 237, 240, 241, 246, 250 and 253 to 255 constitute a technical group designed to ensure that redundant references to Treasury consent and the Secretary of State are removed, and that appropriate powers are transferred to the First Minister and Scottish Ministers.
Government amendments Nos. 240 and 241 clarify that the Secretary of State for Scotland's statutory power to appoint the Keeper of the Records, the Keeper of the Registers and the Registrar-General will transfer to Scottish Ministers. Government amendment No. 246 removes a function of the Secretary of State in relation to schools inspectors that will transfer by administrative action to the First Minister. Government amendment No. 250 clarifies that the Scottish Ministers will appoint the Accountant in Bankruptcy. Government amendment No. 252 makes similar changes in connection with the provision of prison staff.
758 Government amendments Nos. 253 to 255 are technical amendments to the list of repeals in schedule 8. They are related to the amendments made in schedule 7.
§ Mr. JenkinThis group of amendments underlines how fantastically complicated it is to define a civil servant in the Scottish context and to specify which members of staff, who may ultimately be answerable to the Scottish Executive, count as members of the home civil service. Will the Minister say whether the definition of the home civil service is being expanded?
While the hon. Gentleman is thinking about that—it may require some thought—will he also bear in mind the fact that, because this huge raft of amendments, which underlines the scale of the undertaking, has been brought forward at such a late stage, the House will not have the opportunity to consider them in much detail? We shall have to rely on the second Chamber to ensure that the amendments are appropriate. I have a sneaking suspicion that the Government may yet table one or two more amendments—indeed, there may be tens or hundreds of them. There will be pages and pages of changes to the Bill, which we have not been able to perfect in the House of Commons.
§ Mr. Donald Gorrie (Edinburgh, West)Will the Scottish Parliament be able to introduce a more open ethos in the Scottish civil service than the one that conventionally obtains in the United Kingdom civil service? There has been much talk of the Scottish Parliament operating in a new way and being more open and consensual, so civil servants may have to respond differently. Will the Minister assure the House that they will be able to do so while continuing to be members of the United Kingdom civil service?
§ Mr. DalyellI am not alone in thinking that there is a real problem. Both Sir John Garlick and Sir Michael Quinlan, the civil servants who were brought in last time when such matters were dealt with by the Cabinet Office, expressed their concern at various academic seminars in the 1980s—I suspect that the problem remains—about not only the unity of the British civil service, but who will be the "master" of these civil servants. It is very far from clear whether crucial civil servant appointments will be made by the Cabinet Secretary of the day, the head of the home civil service or the Scottish Executive. I ask for some comment on that.
I do not know whether this is the right opportunity to ask this, but how many junior Ministers will there be, and what will they be paid? Will they be paid along Westminster lines, or is there another idea for payment?
§ Mr. McLeishAs the hon. Member for North Essex (Mr. Jenkin) said, the Bill is extraordinarily complex—that has become obvious during the eight days in Committee and the three days on Report. However, I think that it is substantially well worked out. As we are talking about civil servants, I should say that they have made an extraordinary contribution of the highest quality to achieve what I believe is our success in moving in 53 weeks from the general election to, I hope, the Bill's Third Reading.
On the specific question posed by the hon. Member for North Essex, the base of the home civil service will not be extended. The matter is being dealt with entirely by transfer from the Scottish Office to the Scottish Executive.
759 On openness, I stress that people who serve the Government are often much maligned. Our experience in government has shown us that openness is not an issue. I believe that there is a consistency of provision throughout the United Kingdom. I have no doubt that, whether the operation is in Scotland, England, Wales or Northern Ireland, we receive a high-quality response. I believe that the civil service will embrace and make an excellent contribution to the new politics in Scotland.
My hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) asked about junior Ministers' pay. The Senior Salaries Review Body must deal with that. We want to generate confidence in Scotland in what we are doing on pay, pensions and conditions.
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State asked the SSRB to provide guidance, on the basis of its excellent knowledge, on salaries, pensions and conditions for Members of the Scottish Parliament and, indeed, the Scottish Executive. That is absolutely right, because we want to start off on the right footing. I remember the unedifying sight of Members scurrying through the Lobby here to vote on pay rises, conditions and allowances.
With the SSRB report, I hope that my right hon. Friend will be in a position to make judgments for the Scottish Parliament, and that it will proceed quickly to fill in the detail of what is required for the future. There needs to be some objectivity in relation to sensitive issues that can be misconstrued, so Holyrood should not be involved in some of the decisions.
There are often complaints about the number of Government amendments tabled at a late stage, on Report. The complexity of the legislation meant that we could not get the detail right any sooner, but we have made a comprehensive response on the question of the Scottish Administration and its staff. We believe that we have got it right. Although time must tell, we know that there is an excellent civil service in place, and that it will serve the Scottish Parliament well.
§ 5 pm
§ Mr. DalyellThere is a critical question as to who makes the decisions. Is it to be an organisation based in Scotland, with its own chief executive, or is it to be the head of the home civil service in London?
§ Mr. McLeishThe Scottish Executive will be responsible for appointments. That is a reasonable demarcation of responsibilities. What is good and unifying about our approach is that there is a home-based civil service throughout the United Kingdom. That is good for Westminster, for Scotland, and, indeed, for civil servants.
§ Mr. GrieveThe Minister slightly sidestepped the question about possible changes in the civil service ethos. It was suggested that the ethos in Edinburgh might be different from that in London. If there is a unified home civil service with central control—even if civil servants are working with different masters—there can be no room for a different ethos, because everyone will have to follow the guidelines laid down by the central civil service in London.
§ Mr. McLeishThat proposition is premised on the assumption that we need to change the ethos. After my 760 first year as a Scottish Office Minister, I am not entirely convinced that that is so. There is a pejorative aspect to the talk of ethos, suggesting that something is substantially wrong, and I do not accept that. No matter where civil servants are working, I am convinced that we will get the same quality of active advice and thorough professionalism.
Amendment agreed to.
Amendments made: No. 134, in page 20, leave out lines 21 to 25 and insert—
'( ) the holder of any office in the Scottish Administration which is not a ministerial office, or( ) a member of the staff of the Scottish Administration'.No. 135, in page 20, line 38, at end insert—'( ) Section 1(2) and (3) of the Superannuation Act 1972 (delegation of functions relating to civil service superannuation schemes etc.) shall have effect as if references to a Minister of the Crown (other than the Minister for the Civil Service) included the Scottish Ministers'.No. 136, in page 21, line 7, leave out 'that Act' and insert'the Civil Service (Management Functions) Act 1992'.—[Mr. McLeish.]