National Assembly (Hansard, 18 March 1998)

§ 3. Mr. Nicholas Winterton
What response he has received to his proposals for the establishment of regional committees within the National Assembly for Wales. [33428]

§ The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Ron Davies)
There has been a very favourable response. We are determined that the assembly will work for the benefit of the whole of Wales and next month, my advisory group will seek views on the number and boundaries of regional committees to help to achieve that.

§ Mr. Winterton
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for that response. He will be aware that my constituency of Macclesfield is in the county of Cheshire, which abuts north Wales. Is he aware that, now that he has announced the fact that the assembly is to be located in Cardiff, there are many people in north and central Wales who are deeply concerned that their views will not be heard in Cardiff? Bearing in mind that, from many parts of north Wales, it is easier to get to London than to Cardiff, what assurances can he give the people of north, west and central Wales that their views and their interests will genuinely be taken into account in the new assembly?

§ Mr. Davies
I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman asks that question on behalf of his constituents or those of my right hon. and hon. Friends who represent Welsh constituencies.
1274 The question of accessibility was a major factor in deciding to locate the assembly in Cardiff. I am determined to ensure that we have a network of contacts linking the assembly in Cardiff with all parts of Wales, and I am presently holding discussions with the Welsh Local Government Association in order to achieve that. We have a system of proportional representation—which the hon. Gentleman could not find it in his heart to support—which ensures that we have political plurality within the assembly. Of course, we shall also have a system of regional committees, which is at the heart of the hon. Gentleman's question.

§ Mr. Donald Anderson
The city of Swansea may qualify for a regional committee, but that will be poor consolation for the loss of the assembly. My right hon. Friend should be well aware of the intense anger in the city at the way in which many people feel that we have been used—particularly because the Secretary of State first broached the subject of Swansea guildhall as an option. If the key consideration was the capital city status of Cardiff, why did the Secretary of State not say that at the start and save us a lot of bother? As together we used to criticise the Conservative Welsh Office for centralising everything in Cardiff, can my right hon. Friend produce any clear evidence—chapter and verse, citing investment or jobs—that that has changed?

§ Mr. Davies
My hon. Friend has raised several points. I take this opportunity to express my appreciation to the people of Swansea and the local authorities for the way in which they presented their case, and to my hon. Friend and his colleagues who pressed the case for Swansea very vigorously.
When it became clear last autumn that the city hall in Cardiff was not available, I was of the view that it would be appropriate to allow local authorities in Wales to make submissions to the Welsh Office offering any buildings in their areas. I believe that the debate in Wales was taken forward because we received many submissions not just from Swansea, but from throughout Wales. During the consultation process on the submissions, it became clear that the overwhelming majority of opinion favoured Cardiff. That obviously bore very heavily on my decision.
As to the latter part of my hon. Friend's question, I intend to develop—together with my colleagues—an economic strategy that spreads economic prosperity throughout Wales. The need to attract inward investment to all parts of Wales—particularly to the west—is a central part of that strategy.

§ Mr. Ancram
Following that answer, does the Secretary of State appreciate what a figure of fun he has become both inside and outside Wales over the location of the assembly? Did he not hear the mockery that met his announcement last Friday? Apparently, having suddenly discovered where the capital city of Wales is, the Secretary of State is now compelled to do what the White Paper told us categorically last July he intended to do anyway and locate the assembly in Cardiff—although he still cannot tell us where in the city it will be situated. Does he accept that his dithering and posturing programme of indecision, sheltering behind what is clearly a sham and bogus beauty contest, has caused great bitterness in various parts of Wales that have been exploited? Will the Secretary of State now apologise to 1275 the people of Wales for his crass performance, and will he reimburse those councils that have incurred costs because of it? Will he now make way for someone who can do his job properly?

§ Mr. Davies
No, no and no are the answers to the right hon. Gentleman's questions. With an attitude like that, it is little wonder that the previous Conservative Government had a reputation for disastrous financial and economic performance.
The right hon. Gentleman has consistently urged me to pay more than I need to for an assembly building. He is arguing that I should be both profligate and irresponsible—and I shall certainly not be either. Much as he dislikes it, I am determined to get value for money. I know that the right hon. Gentleman has been a strong supporter of devolution for all of the past two and a half weeks, but he should temper his new-found enthusiasm with a little better judgment.

Mr. Alan Williams
May I underline to my right hon. Friend the bitterness and disillusionment felt in Swansea at his announcement? Does he not realise that the arguments that he found so compelling last Friday were every bit as compelling before he even launched his consultation process, and have led to the conclusion in Swansea that the low-cost Swansea bid was simply used as a bargaining counter against the two expensive Cardiff bids? Where does Swansea go, now that our Secretary of State has abandoned it?

§ Mr. Davies
My right hon. Friend is wrong on two counts. It was not my desire, nor was it the effect of my discussions with Swansea, to use the city as a bargaining counter. He is also wrong to suggest that I have abandoned Swansea. I have done neither of those things. As I told my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, East (Mr. Anderson), it is my intention to work with the people of Swansea to try to ensure that the economic prosperity experienced by much of south-east Wales is shared in south-west Wales.
The decision that I had to take in respect of the location of the assembly was not what was good for Swansea, but what was good for Wales and for the assembly itself. During the discussions that have taken place over the past three or four months, it became clear that there was a compelling case for Cardiff. I hope that my right hon. Friend, his hon. Friends and the people of Swansea will understand that it is now in everyone's interests to get behind the assembly project in Cardiff, because that is the way in which we shall have a successful economy and a prosperous Wales in the future.

§ 4. Mr. Paterson
If he will make a statement on progress on the Welsh assembly. [33429]

§ Mr. Ron Davies
Excellent progress is being made. The Committee stage of the Government of Wales Bill has been completed. Following calls from all parties and the advice of my advisory group, I have tabled amendments to allow the assembly to adopt a cabinet-style system of government, should it wish to do so. My advisory group will publish a wide-ranging consultation document next month on the assembly's 1276 internal working arrangements. Last Friday, of course, I announced that the assembly will be located in a new building in Cardiff.

§ Mr. Paterson
How can the Secretary of State say that excellent progress is being made, when we have graphic evidence this afternoon from Labour Members that Wales is bitterly divided, following the shambles of the consultation process? Will the right hon. Gentleman, who has dithered all along on the matter, make a clear statement this afternoon about where in Cardiff the assembly will be built, and when? If he cannot make that decision, will he make way for someone else who can?

§ Mr. Davies
The hon. Gentleman invites me to take a decision based on short-term political considerations, not value for money. I will not do that. I will make sure that the public interest is properly protected. I am looking for the best deal, not just the quickest fix.

§ Ann Clwyd
Does my right hon. Friend agree that the twinning proposal adopted by the Scottish Labour party as a means of achieving better representation of men and women in the Scottish Parliament is an excellent idea and the way forward for Wales as well?

§ Mr. Davies
That is a matter for the Scottish Labour party. I fully appreciate the arguments in favour of ensuring that there is a proper gender balance in the assembly when it is elected. I draw my hon. Friend's attention to paragraph 4.7 of the White Paper, which states: In particular, the Government attaches great importance to equal opportunities for all—including women, members of ethnic minorities and disabled people…greater participation by women is essential to the health of our democracy. The Government also urges all political parties offering candidates for election to the Assembly to have this in mind in their internal candidate selection processes. That is a part of the White Paper that I personally wrote, and I stand by every word of it.

§ Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones
The Secretary of State will be aware that, during the Committee stage of the Bill, I and my colleagues argued strongly for a European committee to be included in the national assembly. Does he realise how important that is, bearing in mind the future of structural funds? In the meantime, will he take no nonsense from the Department of Trade and Industry? Will he push the case for a new NUTS—nomenclature of units of territorial statistics—designation area for Wales, to make sure that west Wales and the valley areas that need it will achieve objective 1 status? Will he give the House an assurance that, at the appropriate time, he will appear at the Council of Ministers to argue the case?

§ Mr. Davies
I discussed the questions that the hon. Gentleman raises yesterday with my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade, and I impressed on her the strength of feeling that exists in Wales. As my hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Mr. Hain) said, the Government believe that we have a strong case for objective 2 status across Wales, and for objective 1 status in west Wales and the valleys. I assure the hon. Gentleman that it will be my intention, and that of my colleagues, to ensure that, when the negotiations start— 1277 today's announcement is the start of the negotiations, not the completion—we will continue to press that case as vigorously as possible.
On the establishment of a European Committee, there was a strong case before today's announcement to have such a Committee in the assembly. During the early part of next month, my advisory group will produce a consultation document inviting views on the nature of the committee structure in the proposed assembly. I very much look forward to the observations and submissions that no doubt will come from the hon. Gentleman and his party on how the internal organisation of the assembly should be structured.

§ Mr. Barry Jones
In the opinion of my right hon. Friend, which would fill an empty factory quicker in the town of Buckley—a regional committee, an assembly, or the current Welsh Office? There is concern in Buckley about the 70 jobs that we lost at the Optec factory, which was a grave blow, and we would welcome any help that my right hon. Friend can give to help my constituents back into work at that factory.

§ Mr. Davies
I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who has raised this matter with me before. I have indicated that I shall continue to work with him. I have discussed with the Welsh Development Agency what measures we can take to get proper employment into the factory to which he referred. It would be wrong of us to view the assembly as a means of creating job opportunities. The assembly must be a means of creating a new democracy, and that new democracy in Wales will be the means by which we can improve the performance of our economy. We should not view the location of the assembly as a means for economic regeneration or urban redevelopment.

§ Mr. Ancram
I warmly welcome the Government's conversion to our proposal for the more accountable cabinet structure rather than the committee structure that was previously in the Bill. Does the right hon. Gentleman realise, however, that there is still considerable—and real—fear in parts of Wales that their regional interests will be submerged by the demographic majority in the south? Will he look again at giving Members of the Assembly real, rather than consultative, powers to protect their regions? In particular, powers with which to ensure significant economic, social and cultural decisions will require positive assent from all the regions in Wales.

§ Mr. Davies
No, I will not do that. The right hon. Gentleman has not thought through his case. If we were to give the regional committees the blocking mechanism that he suggests, the cabinet system of government, which he now welcomes, would not be capable of being operated in Wales. Further, he has long argued that the assembly should be seen as a mechanism to strengthen local government. If we were to strengthen the regional system of committees in the assembly, that would be nothing less than an attempt to second guess the role played by local authorities. Because I want to have strong, developing local government in Wales, and strong cabinet government for the Welsh assembly, I am not inclined to accept the right hon. Gentleman's suggestions.

§ Mr. Rhodri Morgan
Does the Secretary of State agree that one of the virtues of devolution is that it is a 1278 clean break with Tory sleaze and the corruption-ridden semi-colonial past? Does he further agree that one of the two options that he presented for the location of the Welsh assembly—the one located around Crickhowell house—is the very embodiment of Tory sleaze and that corruption-ridden past? A previous Tory Secretary of State, David—now Lord—Hunt, signed the lease with the company of his predecessor Tory Secretary of State, Nicholas Edwards—now Lord Crickhowell—and a building that cost Associated British Ports, Lord Crickhowell's company, £11 million suddenly became worth £22 million, representing 100 per cent. profit overnight to two Tory Secretaries of State.

§ Mr. Davies
The substance of my hon. Friend's question is whether we should locate the assembly in one of two sites that we have identified in Cardiff. I have a great deal of sympathy with much of what he said, but my decision must be based on what is good for the assembly, for Cardiff and for Wales.