INTERPRETATION (Hansard, 2 March 1998)

§ Mr. Ancram
I beg to move amendment No. 516, in page 67, line 41, after 'Treasury', insert— '"Secretary of State" means the Secretary of State for Wales.'. This is a short amendment, but no less important for that. The amendment seeks, where the words "Secretary of State" appear in the Bill—as they do frequently—to substitute the words "Secretary of State for Wales". That arises from several questions that have been asked in these proceedings, to which we have not received totally satisfactory answers.
I may say that I am not seeking at this stage to find out from the Secretary of State by way of the amendment whether he intends to be that Secretary of 825 State or whether he will have moved on to other matters in Cardiff, Swansea or wherever it might be. He has shown an unnatural and unaccustomed coyness on the matter, and he has been sufficiently embarrassed today for me not to press him further.
The Under-Secretary has just said that this is the Government of Wales Bill and that the Government are seeking devolution. It seems extraordinary, therefore, that we should leave in the Bill a provision that could suggest that what had been done by the Secretary of State for Wales in the past could be done in future by any Secretary of State.
My understanding is that the term Secretary of State can be applied to anybody who carries that title in the Government. Fifteen members of the Cabinet are described as Secretaries of State. Each of them would fit the nomenclature in the Bill and would be able to exercise the powers given to the Secretary of State. Is the Chancellor of the Exchequer also a Secretary of State for these purposes, and is that true also of the Chief Secretary, the President of the Council and the Lord Privy Seal?
Under the Bill, various powers are to be exercised by the Secretary of State. Under clause 3, he deals with elections; under clause 16, he makes the early determinations in relation to allowances for Members of the Assembly; under clause 22, he lays the draft transfer of functions order; under clause 32, consultations on legislation are to take place under the auspices of the Secretary of State; under clause 80, which is extremely important, he determines the sums paid to the assembly for it to spend; and under clause 141 he has the draconian power to amend primary legislation by order.
If that is all in the hands of the Secretary of State for Wales, we can understand the position, but my fear is that—

§ Mr. Collins
My right hon. Friend has skipped one clause that immensely strengthens his case: clause 75, which states that The Secretary of State for Wales shall be entitled to attend and participate in any proceedings of the Assembly. If other references to the Secretary of State mean the Secretary of State for Wales, why does clause 75 contain that specific reference?

§ Mr. Ancram
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for pointing that out. It underlines the fact that my anxieties are well founded. We might well find that no Secretary of State for Wales is involved in determining the sums to be given to the assembly, and that that will be decided by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
I want to clarify the matter by inserting the words Secretary of State for Wales". If that is what is meant, there can be no harm in doing that. If that is not what is meant, we must fear for the position of the Secretary of State.
826 I recall that under the Stormont provisions relating to Northern Ireland, there was no Secretary of State. The duties of the Secretary of State were handled by a Minister of State in the Home Office as one of three portfolios. It would not be in the interests of Wales if that happened in this case, and if all the business was conducted by other Secretaries of State.

§ Mr. Win Griffiths
I am surprised that the right hon. Gentleman, who has had considerable experience in government, should have bothered to move the amendment. As the Committee knows, the Bill confers many functions and duties on the Secretary of State, rather than on a named office holder. That simply reflects the modern parliamentary drafting practice of not naming the individual ministerial offices in statute unless absolutely necessary.
I am pleased that the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Mr. Collins) drew attention to the fact that clause 75 refers specifically to the Secretary of State for Wales. Among all the Ministers of the Crown, only the Secretary of State for Wales will have the right to attend and participate in the debates of the National Assembly for Wales. In all other references, it is assumed, as in all other legislation, that the matter involves the Department of which that person is head.
I am surprised that the right hon. Gentleman did not refer, for example, to clauses 23 and 87. That would have spoilt his argument. Those clauses refer to the Minister of the Crown when the intended meaning is not the Secretary of State. I hope that, after that brief explanation, it is clear that, when the term "Secretary of State" is used on its own, it means the Secretary of State for Wales. When we need to, we make it clear that it is only the Secretary of State for Wales. When the legislation applies to any other Minister, it is a Minister of the Crown.

§ Mr. Ancram
When we argued about devolution some months ago, we made it clear that we feared that the role of the Secretary of State for Wales would become so otiose that the position would disappear. Judging from the Minister's comments tonight, it is clear that the Secretary of State for Wales will have very limited functions, which will be designated in the Bill. I do not think that that bodes well for Wales. However, I do not think that I shall succeed in having the amendment accepted at this stage. On that basis, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.