- '.— (1) The Secretary of State and the Northern Ireland Minister having responsibility for social security ("the Northern Ireland Minister") shall from time to time consult one another with a view to securing that, to the extent agreed between them, the legislation to which this section applies provides single systems of social security, child support and pensions for the United Kingdom.
- (2) Without prejudice to section 21, the Secretary of State with the consent of the Treasury, and the Northern Ireland Minister with the consent of the Department of Finance and Personnel, may make—
- (a) arrangements for co-ordinating the operation of the legislation to which this section applies with a view to securing that, to the extent allowed for in the arrangements, it provides single systems of social security, child support and pensions for the United Kingdom, and for making any necessary financial adjustments; and
- (b) reciprocal arrangements for co-ordinating the operation of so much of the legislation as operates differently in relation to Great Britain and in relation to Northern Ireland, and for making any necessary financial adjustments.
- (3) The Secretary of State may make regulations for giving effect to arrangements under subsection (2); and any such regulations may for the purposes of the arrangements provide—
- (a) for adapting legislation (including subordinate legislation) for the time being in force in Great Britain;
- (b) without prejudice to paragraph (a) above, for securing that acts, omissions and events having any effect for the purposes of the enactments in force in Northern Ireland have a corresponding effect in relation to Great Britain (but not so as to confer any double benefit); and
- (c) for determining, in cases where rights accrue both in relation to Great Britain and in relation to Northern Ireland, which of those rights shall be available to the person concerned.
- (4) The Northern Ireland Minister may make regulations for giving effect to arrangements under subsection (2); and any such regulations may for the purposes of the arrangements provide—
- (a) for adapting legislation (including subordinate legislation) for the time being in force in Northern Ireland;
- (b) without prejudice to paragraph (a) above, for securing that acts, omissions and events having any effect for the purposes of the enactments in force in Great Britain have a corresponding effect in relation to Northern Ireland (but not so as to confer any double benefit); and
- (c) for determining, in cases where rights accrue both in relation to Northern Ireland and in relation to Great Britain, which of those rights shall be available to the person concerned.
- (5) This section applies to—
- (a) the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992 and the Social Security Contributions and Benefits (Northern Ireland) Act 1992;
- (b) the Social Security Administration Act 1992 and the Social Security Administration (Northern Ireland) Act 1992;
- (c) the Child Support Act 1991 and the Child Support (Northern Ireland) Order 1991;
- (d) the Disability (Grants) Act 1993;
- (e) the Pension Schemes Act 1993 and the Pensions Schemes (Northern Ireland) Act 1993;
- (f) the Jobseekers Act 1995 and the Jobseekers (Northern Ireland) Order 1995;
- (g) the Pensions Act 1995 and the Pensions (Northern Ireland) Order 1995;
- (h) the Child Support Act 1995 and the Child Support (Northern Ireland) Order 1995;
- (i) the Social Security Act 1998 and the Social Security (Northern Ireland) Order 1998.
- (6) The following provisions (which are superseded by this section and section (Social security, child support and pensions: the Joint Authority)) shall cease to have effect—
- (a) sections 177 and 178 of the Social Security Administration Act 1992 (co-ordination and reciprocity with Northern Ireland);
- (b) sections 153 and 154 of the Social Security Administration (Northern Ireland) Act 1992 (co-ordination and reciprocity with Great Britain);
- (c) section 56 (2) to (4) of the Child Support Act 1991 (co-ordination with Northern Ireland);
- (d) Article 49 (2) and (3) of the Child Support (Northern Ireland) Order 1991 (co-ordination with Great Britain).
- (7) Section 189 of the Social Security Administration Act 1992 (regulations and orders: general) shall apply in relation to the power conferred by subsection (3) as it applied in relation to the power conferred by section 177 (4) of that Act.
- (8) Section 165 of the Social Security Administration (Northern Ireland) Act 1992 (regulations and orders: general) shall apply in relation to the power conferred by subsection (4) as it applied in relation to the power conferred by section 153 (3) of that Act.'.—[Mr. Paul Murphy.]
§ Brought up, and read the First time.
5.12 pm§ The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr. Paul Murphy)I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
§ Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst)With this, it will be convenient to discuss the following: Government new clause 3—Social security, child support and pensions: the Joint Authority.
Government amendments Nos. 50, 51, 53, 55, 61, 66, 68 and 69.
§ Mr. MurphyThe amendments that we have to consider today are of two kinds. The first are technical ones, which we hope will improve the drafting of the Bill; the others are part of our response to our consultation with the parties, as well as to the views that have been expressed in the House. As we examine them this evening, I shall be able to give an explanation.
I apologise for the length and complexity of the first group of amendments and new clauses, but they are not as difficult as they might appear on the surface.
As the House knows, social security in Northern Ireland is the responsibility of the Department of Health and Social Services, and therefore passes under the Belfast agreement to the devolved institutions. However, there is close parity between Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and there are close links between the two social security systems. Reciprocal arrangements must exist to ensure, 561 for example, that entitlements to benefit can be transported by someone who moves house. There must also be arrangements for recognition of reciprocal agreements with other states, and there is much practical co-operation between the two systems—for example, the use of UK-wide computer systems.
There is also a question of finance. There are arrangements for topping up the Northern Ireland national insurance fund from its counterpart in Britain so that benefits in Northern Ireland can be paid at the same rates for the same contributions.
New clauses 2 and 3 provide for the Secretary of State for Social Security and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland to make arrangements for co-ordination. They do not require parity, but they provide a means by which the practical consequences of divergence can be managed. If the Assembly decides, for example, to move from parity between Britain and Northern Ireland, the cost would have to be met by the Assembly itself. Arrangements under the new clauses extend to child support and pensions, as well as to other social security benefits. In other words, if the Assembly wishes to vary benefits in Northern Ireland—presumably upwards—it will have to pay.
Government amendments Nos. 50 and 55 deal with another related point. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor announced in March that the Inland Revenue would assume responsibility for national insurance contributions from next April, taking over that function from the Department of Social Security in Great Britain and from the DHSS in Northern Ireland. Amendment No. 55 makes them an excepted matter by adding them to schedule 2, but, of course, we hope that devolution occurs before April—perhaps some time in February or March. The amendments transfer responsibility for these matters to the Secretary of State for Social Security for those few months, or possibly weeks, so that responsibility for the administration of both national insurance funds would transfer to the Inland Revenue at exactly the sane time.
The amendments and new clauses are a sensible way of dealing with the difficulties arising from the transfer of responsibilities and are in line with the agreement. I commend them to the House.
§ Mr. Clifford Forsythe (South Antrim)I should like to ask the Minister a few questions. New clause 2 (1) refers to
the Secretary of State and the Northern Ireland Minister".Is that a Northern Ireland Assembly Minister? If it means a Minister from the Assembly, why does the new clause not say that?New clause 2(2) (a) refers to arrangements
for making any necessary financial adjustments".Will the Minister explain in what circumstances it would be necessary to make any financial adjustments? Subsection (2)(b) contains the same phrase.New clause 2(3)(a) refers to arrangements "for adapting legislation". What does that mean? When would it be necessary to adapt legislation if there is reciprocity 562 between the two systems? Subsection (3)(c) refers to cases where
rights accrue both in relation to Great Britain and in relation to Northern Ireland".Will the Minister give examples of where rights would accrue? I concede that people should not be able to receive child benefit in Great Britain and in Northern Ireland at the same time. One cannot have rights to two benefits in different jurisdictions. Can the Minister give an example of the rights that would accrue in Great Britain or Northern Ireland that would require the Secretary of State to decide where the benefit—be it child benefit or any other—would be drawn?New clause 2(6) proposes some repeals. What is the effect of those? Schedule 15 also proposes repeals. New clause 2 refers to section 177(2) of the Social Security Administration Act 1992, which provides that the joint authority will be the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and the head of the Northern Ireland Department. However, new clause 3 states that the joint authority will consist of the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, the Northern Ireland Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The Chancellor is reputed to have interfered in other areas. Why has he been added to the joint authority?
What aspects of social security business can still be raised in the House? What opportunities will be open to hon. Members from throughout the United Kingdom to ask questions on social security matters in Northern Ireland when the Assembly is in place? I hope that the Minister will be able to answer some of my questions. He will probably say that he will write to me. If he does say that, I shall understand.
§ Mr. Paul MurphyI am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his understanding. I shall try to answer some of his questions. He has taken a personal interest in these matters for some years. The reference in new clause 2 to a Northern Ireland Minister means a Minister from the Assembly.
§ Mr. ForsytheWhy is that not stated in the Bill? Ministers in the Northern Ireland Office are Northern Ireland Ministers. Why does not the Bill say Northern Ireland Assembly Ministers?
§ Mr. MurphyThe Bill proposes the establishment of the Northern Ireland Assembly, and throughout the Bill it is clear that a Northern Ireland Minister is an Assembly Minister. Of course, if we were debating a social security measure, matters would be different, but in this context we are discussing a Northern Ireland Assembly Minister.
The financial adjustments refer to two matters, the first of which is the use in one country of benefit books that have been issued in another—for example, when someone is on holiday. The other matter relates to the topping up of the Northern Ireland national insurance fund. Adapting legislation allows account to be taken of, for example, waiting days in one country so that they can be counted towards benefit in another. The payment of double benefit would have to be avoided where someone has worked half his life in Great Britain and half in Northern Ireland; the details of who pays his retirement pension have to be worked out.
The repeals in the new clause are duplicated in the Bill and they must appear in the Bill in the right way. As the hon. Member for South Antrim (Mr. Forsythe) said, these 563 are important matters. It is appropriate to add my right hon. Friend the Chancellor to the joint authority because of the financial implications.
The last point made by the hon. Member for South Antrim was about matters that can be raised here. Northern Ireland Members will have the same rights as other hon. Members to raise issues at Westminster. If I have not covered some of the more detailed aspects,I shall ensure that the hon. Gentleman receives a detailed reply.
§ Mr. Dominic Grieve (Beaconsfield)The answer to my question should be brief. I should like the Minister to clarify the relationship between new clause 2 and new clause 3. New clause 2 seems to make it explicit that the extent of consultations is a matter for agreement. Therefore, disagreement is possible. However, it is closely linked to new clause 3, which deals with the joint authority. That will have three members, only one of whom will be a Member of the Northern Ireland Assembly. That means that the Member of the Assembly could be outvoted by the two other people on the joint authority. How does the Minister reconcile those two new clauses? They seem to be linked, but one provides for agreement between a United Kingdom Minister and a Northern Ireland Minister while the other suggests that the Northern Ireland Minister would be consistently outvoted.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. For the sake of good order, I remind the House that on Report hon. Members may speak only once and the Minister twice in each debate on an amendment. We may get into difficulties if the debate becomes a question and answer session. However, as a specific question has been asked, the Minister may care to answer it.
§ Mr. MurphySome clarification is required, although it will not necessarily mean altering the new clauses. I shall write to the hon. Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) about the matter.
§ Question put and agreed to.
§ Clause read a Second time, and added to the Bill.