HC Deb 13 July 1998 vol 316 cc13-5
14. Mr. Nigel Beard (Bexleyheath and Crayford)

What plans he has to change fire and police pension arrangements. [48408]

The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. Alun Michael)

On 31 March, we published consultation documents on the police and fire service pension schemes. We have invited comments on those consultation documents by the end of July. We shall listen carefully to the comments that we receive, in considering changes to the pension arrangements for new entrants to the police and fire services and to medical retirement procedures.

Mr. Beard

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Does he recall that proposals for closing Shooters Hill fire station, which covers part of my constituency, arose out of difficulties in financing the London fire brigade's pension funds? Will he ensure that, in any future arrangements that are made, pension fund arrangements do not influence the strength or disposition of fire services or police services in any part of London?

Mr. Michael

My hon. Friend makes a serious point, and I can understand the difficulty that confronts people when local decisions have an impact on the local community. However, there is no magic wand for dealing with the burden of pensions. It would cost about £30 billion to provide a fully funded pension scheme for the police and the fire service, and I suspect that hon. Members on both sides of the House would have other priorities for such sums of money.

There are vast variations in the extent to which ill health retirement pensions act as a drain on the resources of both the police and the fire service. That problem will not go away; it requires good management of the available resources and careful consideration of the options set out in our consultation papers.

Mr. John Greenway (Ryedale)

Does the Minister agree with the Police Federation and the Fire Brigades Union that it would be unacceptable for two police officers or firefighters, together killed or seriously injured in the line of duty, to have different entitlements to injury benefit, or for the widow and family of one to be paid less pension and other benefits than the family of the other? Notwithstanding the need to review the police and fire service pension schemes, that view is common to both sides of the House, and there is cross-party agreement, especially on the need to eliminate abuse in the area of ill health, which the Minister mentioned.

Does the Minister agree that the dangers faced every day by policemen and firefighters demand and deserve special consideration? The public would find it very difficult to understand it if, when such a tragedy occurred, the widow or family of one had less benefit entitlement than the other. Will he please bear that in mind in his review?

Mr. Michael

I shall certainly bear in mind the points that the hon. Gentleman makes when we consider the outcome of the review. I believe that all hon. Members would accept that police officers and firefighters place themselves in danger in order to protect the public; that is why their schemes are more generous than other pension schemes. I make the point gently, however, that, after the Sheehy report was published, it was the Conservative party that started the differentials between people serving together in different areas. Those differentials are among the difficult issues that must be tackled. If changes are desirable, they cannot be made for those already serving. Consequently, if one were to accept the logic of what the hon. Gentleman says, one might be trapped in a situation where no changes were ever made.

Mr. Lawrie Quinn (Scarborough and Whitby)

Does my hon. Friend agree that, in areas such as North Yorkshire, where both the police authority and the fire authority have particular problems of sparsity because of the large geographical area and the limited manpower available to them, special consideration must be given to the management problems that those authorities face, to which my hon. Friend referred earlier?

Mr. Michael

The impact on individual forces is set out and considered in the formula that applies to police forces and the fire service. Sparsity is identified as a major complication by police forces and fire services covering rural areas. That is why I have commissioned research into the impact of sparsity, to see whether that can be evaluated. We may have more to say when we see the outcome of that research.