PRESIDING OFFICER AND DEPUTY (Hansard, 2 February 1998)

§ Mr. Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley)
I beg to move amendment No. 294, in page 26, line 39, leave out from 'members' to 'shall' in line 1 on page 27 and insert— 'the deputy presiding officer. (1A) The Secretary of State shall be the presiding officer of the Assembly, but shall not otherwise be entitled to attend or to participate in or to vote in any proceedings of the Assembly. (2) The offices specified in this section.'.

The First Deputy Chairman
With this, it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 295, in page 27, line 4, leave out 'be Assembly members who'.
No. 296, in page 27, line 5, at end insert— '(4) To be elected the presiding officer must secure an overall majority of the votes of Assembly members and, for each electoral region, no less than one third of the votes of Assembly members representing that region.'. No. 309, in clause 75, page 37, leave out lines 28 to 33 and insert— '(1) The Secretary of State for Wales shall be the presiding officer of the Assembly, but shall not otherwise be entitled to attend or to participate or to vote in any proceedings of the Assembly.'. No. 308, in clause 75, page 37, leave out lines 28 to 33.

§ Mr. Evans
We hope to ascertain a more definite role for the Secretary of State for Wales, and also a sound basis for the position of the presiding officer. A growing band of people are still uncertain about what the Secretary of State's role will be after devolution becomes effective. He will lose a considerable amount of the power which, I assume, took up some of his working week, and the vacuum thus created has yet to be properly filled.
Working on the dictum that the devil makes work for idle hands, I hope that the Secretary of State will take the amendments in the constructive and inclusive sense in which they are meant. We are not trying to smoke out from him whether he intends to stand for the assembly in his own right—well, we are actually, but I suspect that we shall not get much further today than we have in the past. What we know is that the right hon. Gentleman is devolving a substantial amount of his job to the assembly. I suspect that it may be to himself that he is trying to pass those powers, with another hat on, but the move will leave whoever is Secretary of State in his place without the same role—some would say, with an inferior role—although he will still have important financial roles, which we shall debate tomorrow.
The amendment suggests giving the Secretary of State the role of presiding officer. He will thus be establishing a substantial authoritative role for himself, and a definite role within the new structure. He will have clout at Westminster and beyond, voicing the concerns of Wales. Whatever is decided, it is important to establish where authority lies on the various levels, and how best to ensure that Wales's voice is not muted or lost, but just inwardly directed by the devolution process.
The First Secretary will have elected authority, and will be seen as the person who speaks for Wales. A perception could quickly and easily arise that, as the Secretary of State for Wales was the Prime Minister's choice, his voice was that of the Cabinet and the Government. Indeed, 738 it would be peculiar and irregular if it were otherwise, although in the past no one has competed against the Secretary of State in the context of speaking for the people of Wales. There could be clashes between the First Secretary and the Secretary of State for Wales, just as Secretaries of State will argue with leaders of local authorities even when those authorities are controlled by their own political parties.
Amendments Nos. 309 and 308 are contingent on the acceptance of amendments Nos. 294 and 295. Amendment No. 296 addresses the fears of the regions about the position of the presiding officer. People in the regions are concerned about the fair and proper working of the assembly. We seek to have their voice properly protected.

§ Mr. Ted Rowlands (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)
Can the hon. Gentleman give us an example of a Speaker or a presiding officer of a democratically elected assembly who is not a member of that assembly?

§ Mr. Evans
I could give the example of the vice-president of the senate, but the Welsh assembly is a new body and we are seeking new methods. We are not constrained by the methods used in local government or Westminster. Let us see what we can offer.

§ Mr. Michael Ancram (Devizes)
The A1 Gore of Wales.

§ Mr. Evans
I am not sure whether that example would sell our proposition.

§ The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Ron Davies)
I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman's continuing influence in Welsh affairs from his vantage point in Ribble Valley. Given that the two amendments are mutually exclusive, which one would he prefer?

§ Mr. Evans
We are trying to find out the views of the Government and the Secretary of State. It is proper for us to table amendments that, although mutually exclusive or contradictory, seek to draw out the Secretary of State. I hope that he recognises what we are trying to do. I may not have a preference: I am interested to know what the Government propose for the Secretary of State.

§ Mr. Davies
The Government may acknowledge the force of the hon. Gentleman's argument and be prepared to accept one of the amendments. I am merely wondering which one he would like us to accept.

§ Mr. Evans
There is always a first for everything. If the Secretary of State were to agree with any of my suggestions, it would be a parliamentary first and would go down in history. Both amendments are important. There could be a conflict between the Secretary of State for Wales and the First Secretary, and there could be a problem given that the Bill will create a vacuum in the Secretary of State's time. We hope that he will consider the amendments carefully, and accept some of our propositions. He may make his own proposals, or even declare an interest by telling us that he intends to stand for the Welsh assembly and wants to pass some of his present powers to himself in another guise.
739 Regional committees will be established: all we know to date is that there will be a committee of the north and other regional committees. We are seeking to have their voice protected by the constitutional safeguard of regional representation. The presiding officer would have to attract the majority support of the assembly, would have to have national appeal, and would have to win a third of the votes of Members of the Assembly representing each region. We believe that that device would allay the fears of the regions and the people who live in them.
After the referendum, the map of Wales was clearly divided between those who were and those who were not in favour of an assembly.

§ Mr. Ron Davies
indicated dissent.

§ Mr. Evans
The Secretary of State shakes his head, but I remember the night clearly: 11 areas voted yes and 11 voted no.

§ Mr. Dafydd Wigley (Caernarfon)
The hon. Gentleman uses the same old arguments at every debate.

§ Mr. Evans
If they are the same old valid arguments, it is important to keep stressing them. I had hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would agree with us about looking at ways to remove the fears of people in regions such as north Wales. They should be properly assured, and one way to do that is to give those who will represent the regions an extra say and protection for their views in the assembly. That is all that the amendment would achieve, and I hope that the Secretary of State will consider accepting it. It would give to a third of the representatives of the regions democratic authority in the choice of one of the most important positions in the assembly. The amendments are constructive, and I look forward to hearing the Government's views on them.

§ Mr. Win Griffiths
It is good to see you, Mr. McWilliam, in the Chair because you are from one of the important regions of England.
Despite the earnestness of the hon. Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans)—I almost said dribble valley—the amendments are ambivalent frivolities because they contain two different ideas—one about the role of the Secretary of State and the other about the procedure for an appointment. Clause 51 provides for the assembly to elect a presiding officer and a deputy presiding officer who shall be from different parties within the assembly.
Clause 75 entitles the Secretary of State to attend and participate but not to vote in plenary meetings of the assembly. It is clear from a study of any constitutional assembly in the world that the Secretary of State could not preside over the National Assembly for Wales because the two roles are inimical. For a start, the Secretary of State has onerous responsibilities and duties in the Cabinet and must attend its meetings 740 in London. That would take up a great deal of his time, so the idea of his presiding over an assembly in Cardiff, Swansea, Wrexham or wherever is nonsense.

§ Mr. Evans
Following devolution, what will be the Secretary of State's role? Will he attract new and additional powers? According to the Bill, he will lose powers.

§ Mr. Griffiths
He will have several roles, one of which will be to represent Wales in government at Westminster and to attend the many committees which, as the right hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Ancram) will know, are held in Whitehall. He will also have to report to the assembly and take from that body to Westminster its views on Welsh matters. He will have a full job without the responsibilities of presiding over the assembly.
The hon. Member for Ribble Valley advanced a completely different idea about how the presiding officer should be elected. It is plain that there is no agreement among Opposition Members about which amendment should have priority, and that means that they are not taking them seriously. The amendments are not necessary for the good working of the assembly and the one that requires specific votes from different parts of Wales would place an unnecessary constraint on it.

§ Mr. Evans
The Minister may see it that way, but perhaps we could examine amendment No. 296 and the election of the presiding officer. Is it not important to protect representatives of Welsh regions? The referendum showed that some people, particularly in north Wales, had some fears about the procedure. Our amendment would give them an opportunity to have a proper and equal say in the election of the presiding officer.

§ Mr. Griffiths
We have gone out of our way to try to get a better feel for views throughout Wales. We have introduced an unprecedented element of proportionality to the elections for the assembly. The hon. Gentleman and his party voted against that, but we are happy that that provision will help to take account of views throughout Wales. We do not need the prescription in the amendment and I hope that the hon. Gentleman will withdraw it.

§ Mr. Evans
We gave the Government an opportunity to start to measure up to the words of the Prime Minister on the steps of 10 Downing street when he said that he would listen to the fears of the people of Wales. Some people in north Wales and in other regions expressed fears about the assembly being Cardiff dominated.

§ Mr. Ron Davies
Swansea dominated.

§ Mr. Evans
It may be Swansea dominated. We do not know where the assembly will land. Today's issue of the Western Mail states that an airport site is being considered by the Secretary of State. Perhaps the assembly will have a smoother landing there than it has 741 had since its take off. Amendment No. 296 would have allowed the regions to be properly taken into account. It is a great shame that the Government have not taken up our suggestion, but I do not intend to press the matter. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.