MEMBERS OF SCRUTINY COMMITTEE ETC. (Hansard, 2 February 1998)

§ Mr. Öpik
I beg to move amendment No. 364, in page 30, line 3, at end insert 'but that number shall not be less than eight.'.

The First Deputy Chairman
With this, it will be convenient to discuss amendment No. 365, in clause 61, page 30, line 22, at end insert 'but that number shall not be less than eight.'.

§ Mr. Öpik
The amendments seek to set a minimum number of eight Members for the Scrutiny Committee and the Audit Committee, which have to be seen as fair and equitable. It is vital that no one can question their integrity, so it seems sensible to set a minimum number of members of those two Committees—we suggest eight—as that would guarantee sufficient debate among a cross section of assembly Members to ensure that justice is done. There is never a watertight guarantee of that, but we can be pretty certain that if the Welsh people vote sensibly, a selection of eight assembly Members will be a reasonable reassurance to one and all that the Committees act responsibly and fairly. That is the purpose of the amendments and we very much look forward to the Minister's response.

§ Mr. Jenkin
We believe that the principle of setting a minimum number of members of the Audit Committee is a good one. We are open to persuasion as to whether the number should be eight, but it is incumbent on the Minister to explain why he has not suggested that there should be a minimum number.

§ Mr. Win Griffiths
Clause 60 provides for the establishment by the assembly of a subordinate legislation Scrutiny Committee, whose function it will be to consider the vires of any proposed assembly order or to draw attention to any unusual use of the order-making power. Clause 61 provides for the establishment of an assembly Audit Committee, which will work closely with the newly created Auditor General for Wales. Each of those important Committees will be chaired by a member of one of the Opposition parties in the assembly. Each will have a membership reflecting the overall composition of the assembly. The Bill proposes that the actual number of members of each Committee should be provided for in Standing Orders. The amendments suggest a minimum of eight.
The Government have no objection in principle to the Scrutiny Committee and the Audit Committee having eight or more members, but we do not consider it necessary to put a minimum number of eight on the face of the Bill. Taking account of the debate this evening and the fact that, in principle, the Government do not object to a minimum of eight members, it would be more sensible not to include that number in the Bill as there may be a later move to re-order matters and the Standing Orders provide more flexibility.
It is more important that both Committees will be chaired by members of Opposition parties. When one considers the need to maintain a balance between the parties, it is clear that eight would be the absolute minimum. In practice, the figure is likely to be higher. We believe that the matter should be decided under the Standing Orders and, given the Government's view, I invite the hon. Gentleman to withdraw the amendment.

§ Mr. Öpik
It sounds from the Minister's response that he is not planning a cabal. That is encouraging. On the 794 assumption that the first assembly is likely to set a precedent or an etiquette in respect of the number of members on the Committees, we feel wholly satisfied with the Minister's response, so I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.