§ Mr. Paul Keetch (Hereford)(by private notice): To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the tragic killings of three Britons yesterday in Chechnya.
§ The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr. Tony Lloyd)It is my sad duty to inform the House that Russian Interior Minister Stepashin confirmed to our ambassador in Moscow last night that, as we had feared, the remains found in Chechnya on 8 December were those of Darren Hickey, Peter Kennedy, Rudolf Petschi and Stanley Shaw, the four kidnap victims abducted in Grozny on 3 October. Three of the victims were British nationals and one was from New Zealand. We express our condolences to all the families and to the New Zealand Government.
We are deeply saddened and angered by these barbaric and senseless murders. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary this morning met Russian Foreign Minister Ivanov, who passed on the condolences of the Russian Government. During that meeting, the Foreign Secretary asked Foreign Minister Ivanov to speak directly with President Maskhadov, the Chechen President, so that we can find out exactly what happened to the hostages and ensure that the perpetrators of that wicked crime are pursued and brought to justice.
The victims were innocent people who were working to help to rebuild Chechnya's war-ravaged infrastructure. Our first thoughts must be for the families of the victims. We can only begin to imagine the anguish that they must be suffering at this devastating news. The Foreign Office, the police and the victims' employers are in close contact with the families to provide whatever help and advice they can at this most traumatic time. My noble Friend Baroness Symons, who has responsibility for consular affairs in the Foreign Office, will speak to the families later today. We are also in close contact with the New Zealand Government, who share our grief at this appalling act, and with the employers of the victims, whom I met at the Foreign Office earlier today.
The precise details of the incidents leading up to the tragic murders remain unclear. It seems likely that the victims were killed as a consequence of fighting between rival Chechen forces. However, I would not wish to, and cannot, speculate any further until the facts are known properly. I believe that it is right that the families of the victims should be the first to know, as soon as we are able to establish, what happened. I assure the House that every effort is being made to get to the truth.
The unstable and confused situation in Chechnya will not make that task easy. The Russian authorities admit that their writ does not run into Chechnya and the Chechen authorities are not in control of the situation. Chechnya remains extremely unsafe for British officials and it would be irresponsible to endanger any more British lives by sending our officials to that area. However, we are working closely with the Russian authorities through our embassy in Moscow and through high-level contacts with senior members of the Russian Government. Our ambassador in Moscow met Russian Interior Minister Stepashin earlier today.
322 Since the kidnapping took place, the Foreign Office has been active in seeking the release of the hostages. We sought to make progress particularly through our contacts with both the Russian and Chechen authorities. We have also kept in close touch with the company and the families. Granger Telecom took the lead on the ground in accordance with the wishes of the families and in recognition of its strong links, through commercial contacts, in Chechnya. In the light of these tragic and brutal murders, we shall still co-operate with all concerned, but our first priority is to have the remains of the deceased returned to their families.
We have made it clear that we need to know what happened and what is being done to bring to justice those who committed these repugnant murders. The Government will not rest until the perpetrators of this monstrous crime have been punished.
In conclusion, it is right and proper that I should repeat the FCO's earlier pleas to all British companies, non-governmental organisations and individuals not to go to Chechnya. It is not safe. The British, Russian and Chechen authorities cannot guarantee the safety of foreigners. British citizens should not go there under any circumstances.
§ Mr. KeetchI thank the Minister and Prime Minister for sending their condolences to the families, and I am sure that the whole House will join them in that. It is the families' urgent wish that the hostages' remains should be returned as soon as possible for Christian burial. I support the Minister's efforts to achieve that through the Russian Government and the Chechen authorities.
Now that the Chechen authorities have today confirmed that the killings were part of a bungled rescue attempt, will the Minister assure the House that at no stage in the future will he support the sending of British nationals to Chechnya? Does he agree that any company wishing to send its employees to such a troubled zone should be dissuaded from doing so?
Is the Minister aware that Granger Telecom, the employer of the deceased, has said that it received unclear advice from the Foreign Office? Will he tell the House what that advice was and assure us that the advice was given to the employees? Will he also tell the House what security was provided for the employees while they were in Chechnya? Will he again stress that no British citizen should go to that God-forsaken country?
§ Mr. LloydI thank the hon. Gentleman for his remarks. I am sure that all hon. Members would want to convey their condolences to the families.
The advice that the Foreign Office has given consistently to all concerned, including Granger Telecom, is clear and unambiguous. It is simply that to operate in Chechnya is to put British lives at risk and that British citizens should not travel in that region. Tragically, these events bear out the wisdom of that advice.
We do not know the exact details of the circumstances in which the lives were taken. We know of rumours but, unfortunately, rumours abound in Chechnya. We had no notice of any attempt to rescue the hostages and we would not have advised such an attempt, given the danger that 323 would inevitably be involved. Our priority was always the safety of the four individuals. Our advice, which is still consistent, is that no Briton should travel to that region.
§ Mr. Philip Hammond (Runnymede and Weybridge)On behalf of Mrs. Lilly Shaw, I too thank the Minister for his expression of sympathy and thank the Foreign and Commonwealth Office for taking the lead in the case of Mr. Stanley Shaw, who, although a constituent of mine, is a citizen of New Zealand.
This is not a time for recrimination or blame. Granger Telecom is based in my constituency and I ask the Minister to acknowledge the active, key role taken by the company over the past couple of months in seeking to secure the hostages' release.
Will the Minister confirm that the advice to which he referred, which was given to the company, principally consisted of drawing the company's attention to the published advice to travellers? As of today, that advice lists 16 countries, including Sudan, Algeria and Sri Lanka, to which travellers are advised not to travel under any circumstances. British companies are doing business in many of those countries. Has the Minister reviewed all the internal correspondence at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and all the records of conversations between his Department and the company? Is he absolutely sure that the company was sent an unambiguous message from the British Government about its presence in Chechnya? I have visited the company since the tragic events took place, and I formed the impression that the message sent from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office was not in totality as unambiguous as the Minister would have the House believe.
§ Mr. LloydI associate myself with the hon. Gentleman's message to his constituents and their family.
I stick by the information that I have given the hon. Gentleman previously. The advice was unambiguous. I must point out that Granger Telecom met Foreign Office officials directly and did not come to talk about other countries such as Sudan. I do not want to get into a slanging match across the Dispatch Box, but I repeat that I am absolutely of the view that the advice given was specific and could not have been misinterpreted.
§ Mrs. Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham)On behalf of the Opposition, I join the Minister in expressing anger and outrage at the brutal, cold-blooded murders of Darren Hickey, Peter Kennedy, Rudolf Petschi, and Stanley Shaw. I agree with the Minister that the House's thoughts and sympathy must go first and foremost to their families who are having to come to terms with these senseless killings in the war-torn region that the men were helping to rebuild.
I thank the Minister for the details that he has given of the discussions that his Department is having with the authorities in Moscow, but will he give us a better idea of what British resources he expects to put at the Russian authorities's disposal to establish who was responsible for this atrocity? Will he also tell us, perhaps in an effort to clarify what was known by the Foreign Office, when he knew that there were separate negotiations over the release of these men, and whether the Foreign Office was consulted about them?
324 Will the Minister confirm reports that the company advising on negotiations with the kidnappers was Control Risks and say whether he had any contact with that company? Will he further confirm, as my hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond) asked him to, that his Department really did provide clear and unambiguous advice to Granger Telecom and that the Department of Trade and Industry was also providing advice to companies operating in Chechnya? If so, could copies of that advice be made available?
Will the Minister say how, in the advice that he gives to companies, he distinguishes between countries that are dangerous and countries that are potentially lethal? Are there any other British or Commonwealth citizens in the Chechen Republic? If so, what advice have they been given, and are there any plans to help them leave the republic safely? Will he comment on reports that 10 people are still being held in captivity in Chechnya?
Finally, in the light of these tragic deaths, what lessons can be learned? Will the Minister be changing the Foreign Office procedures for informing companies about the dangers of operating in hostile regions?
§ Mr. LloydLet me say once again as forcefully as I can that I have absolutely no doubt that the advice given was unambiguous and clear and could lead only to the conclusion that Chechnya was too dangerous a place in which to operate and that British citizens should not have been there. There is no question of reviewing the nature of that advice. It is already very clear and still stands for anyone who seeks our advice and, indeed, for anyone who ignores it.
We are aware of, I think, two other British citizens still in Chechnya. Our advice to them and those working with them has again been clear and direct, especially in the light of the taking of the hostages. Our advice to that organisation was clear and continues to be clear.
On resources offered to the Russians, I repeat that it is a matter of practical reality that the writ of the Russian authorities does not easily run in Chechnya. That is why my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary asked Foreign Minister lvanov to communicate with Chechen President Maskhadov in order that the Chechen authorities should begin to pursue the question of what happened and to bring those responsible for it to justice. We shall seek to bring our influence to bear at that level.
The British Government's position on the question of hostages and ransom demands has always been very clear. We do not pay ransoms. The Government confirmed that policy, which obtained under the previous Government, at an early stage. In the interests of British citizens, that is right. Nor do we advise others to pay ransom. As a Government, we were not involved in any negotiations.
Granger Telecom communicated with those responsible for taking the hostages and has been active in seeking the release of such hostages. As the issue must initially be one for the company, I am not in a position to provide any details of the process of those negotiations. At this stage, it is right and proper that information should be made available to the families before it comes into the public domain. The company has agreed with me that the families are entitled to the utmost frankness in the provision of whatever information they need to cope with their almost insupportable loss.
§ Mrs. Angela Browning (Tiverton and Honiton)May I thank the Minister for his condolences to Rudi Petschi and his family, who lived in my constituency? The Minister said that he will investigate the matter. These callous and tragic deaths deserve a thorough investigation that will assist us should we ever need to go through anything similar again.
I draw the Minister's attention to a specific piece of information which deserves scrutiny. He said that the Foreign Office had no warning that an attempt was to be made to rescue the hostages. I know how difficult it is to unscramble messages about what happened. However, yesterday, the Russian section of the BBC monitoring service in Caversham supplied me with a statement that it released at 0615 hours on Sunday from the head of the Chechen security services, which identifies that they knew where the hostages were—in a hamlet on Russian soil close to the Chechen border—and anticipated that Russian forces were likely to mount a rescue. Clearly, that needs to be investigated. Given that that information was in the public domain at 6.15 am on Sunday, will the Minister investigate why the Foreign Office did not know about the threat until the news broke yesterday?
§ Mr. LloydI thank the hon. Lady, too, for her opening remarks. I recognise that for her, as for others with a constituency interest, this is a difficult time. The four Members of Parliament who are most directly involved saw me some weeks ago precisely because they wanted to express their concern.
The hon. Lady must accept that Chechnya is a region where there is almost daily rumour, claim and counterclaim. Rather sadly, there is nothing unusual about the report that she read out. Such a report does not necessarily lead immediately to any practical action. I am aware of such statements, and certainly undertake to get to the bottom of the matter in order to piece together a proper picture of what happened and to see whether there are lessons to be learned.
In the context of the Chechnya of today, we are not dealing with a state organised in the way that we would expect elsewhere. We are dealing with a situation where banditry is the rule of law; unfortunately, our citizens were murdered by precisely that banditry.
§ Mr. Ian Taylor (Esher and Walton)The Minister will be aware that the parents of Darren Hickey work and live in my constituency, and I am grateful to the Minister for his condolences, which I obviously share. The Hickeys have been through a very difficult time, as have the families of the other hostages, and no news was easily available. I appreciate the fact that the Minister explained the difficulty that our embassy in Moscow has in contacting people in Chechnya.
First, will the Minister—without again going into the details of what form of notice might have been given to the company—accept that the contract was a very substantial contract to a very serious company, Granger Telecom, which it was carrying out in association with a BT engineer; and that, therefore, the Government must have at least been aware of its significance, in the middle of Chechnya, bearing in mind its situation vis-a-vis Russia?
Secondly, was any guidance or advice given to the Chechen authorities as they started their search for these four people? Were any military offers of assistance given 326 in terms of advice? It would not be the first time that that had happened, but it is something that it would be good for the House—and for the parents—to understand.
Finally, is there any way that we can achieve better communications with Chechnya? What is the current situation with Russia? What lessons do we need to learn? Some other parts of the former Soviet Union are in considerable disarray; I believe that the Foreign Office must now clarify its guidance to workers on key contracts won by British companies, if there is any thought that those workers might be at risk elsewhere in that region.
§ Mr. LloydWhile I recognise the importance of the contract for those companies involved, I must again repeat the clear, unambiguous advice offered by the Foreign Office—that British citizens should not operate in that area. In the end, as a Government of a free society, we have no power to compel our citizens, beyond offering such advice. Clearly, I have taken the opportunity, and will take the opportunity, to repeat to all concerned that Chechnya is a dangerous place; British citizens simply should not be there. However, I would also tell the House that it was not simply a matter of the exchange of notes. Granger Telecom did meet Foreign Office officials, who gave that advice in those very clear terms. There is no ambiguity in all this. I believe that I have now said that a significant number of times, and I hope that the House will accept that.
The hon. Gentleman asked about our relations with the Chechen authorities. No, we did not offer any military support. We had no easy way on the ground of knowing where the four hostages were. The flow of information was almost non-existent; in those circumstances, our advice would have availed but little.
Obviously, in any situation, we shall always consider the best way of releasing our citizens, and different circumstances may well offer different possibilities. However, in this specific case, a British military intervention would have been extremely dangerous, and would have placed further British lives at risk. Moreover, I do not believe that I could have guaranteed that the result would have been what those advocating that course sought.
§ Mr. Douglas Hogg (Sleaford and North Hykeham)This is a dreadful crime. It puts one in mind of the hostage-taking that took place in the middle east a decade or so ago. Does the Minister agree—he has said so, really—that hostage-taking is encouraged by the payment of ransoms? Will he therefore accept our very strong support for his statement that no ransoms should be paid; and will he accept that the British Government will never be party to the payment of ransoms? Will he do his utmost to encourage Governments of other countries to adopt the same policy, and will he do his best to discourage all parties from even considering the payment of ransoms?
§ Mr. LloydI am genuinely grateful for that intervention because it raises a matter of the utmost importance, which is that there is no advantage in a system where hostages are taken and ransom is systematically paid. That simply encourages the taking of hostages. All experience throughout the world demonstrates the proof of that. The continuation of a policy that makes it clear to all the parties that, as a Government, we will not pay or sanction the payment of 327 ransoms is important, and it is important that it be clear and understood. Yes, of course, we seek, and will continue to seek, the co-operation of other Governments in pursuing exactly that same policy.
§ Dr. Julian Lewis (New Forest, East)I am sure that the whole House is grateful to the Minister for the sensitive and sombre way in which he has been answering questions. Would he join me in urging right hon. and hon. Members to have some sympathy for the position in which the leadership in Chechnya finds itself? It is under threat from Chechen bandits, Muslim fundamentalists and the Russians, whose terrible bombardment of their country led to the chaos that is there. Will the Minister agree with me that it is understandable that the leadership in Chechnya is desperate to have help from the west to rebuild the country, and that we should pay tribute to those men who were brave enough to try to help it?
§ Mr. LloydThere is no doubt that the hon. Gentleman's comments about the difficulties facing the ordinary citizen of Chechnya and the Chechen Government have much merit. The situation of the Chechen Government is indeed far from normal governance.
We would draw strongly to the attention of the Chechen authorities the fact that, if they want assistance in the reconstruction of their country, it is vital that such horrific murders be brought to a conclusion by the successful arrest and prosecution of those concerned. Without that, countries like Britain, and Britain itself, will not be confident that the situation in Chechnya will ever be one where we are able practically to assist.