HC Deb 02 April 1998 vol 309 cc1413-24 3.30 pm
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Marjorie Mowlam)

With permission, Madam Speaker, I should like to make a statement on the report of the Narey inquiry into incidents at the Maze prison.

On 10 December, Provisional IRA prisoner Liam Averill escaped from the Maze prison. On the following day, we commissioned an independent inquiry to be undertaken by Martin Narey, the director of regimes in the Prison Service for England and Wales. He was asked to inquire into the circumstances surrounding the escape.

On 27 December, Loyalist Volunteer Force prisoner Billy Wright was killed within the Maze prison. We immediately asked Martin Narey to extend the scope of his inquiry to include the circumstances surrounding the murder.

In addition, Her Majesty's chief inspector of prisons, Sir David Ramsbotham, was asked immediately to bring forward a full inspection of the Maze.

Martin Narey's detailed and comprehensive report is now before the House. I am grateful to him and his team for completing his inquiry so promptly.

Before going on to consider important aspects of the report, I should like to comment on the third serious incident that has occurred in the Maze—the brutal and savage murder of Mr. David Keys, who was found dead in LVF accommodation on the morning of Sunday 15 March.

I very much regret any incident that leads to the loss of life within prison. I am committed to taking all viable steps to prevent a recurrence, but I must be honest and say emphatically that, even with the most rigorous and severe prison regimes, it is impossible for anyone to guarantee that serious incidents will not happen.

Mr. Keys's murder is, of course, the subject of a Royal Ulster Constabulary investigation and an internal investigation by the Prison Service. However, although Martin Narey had the safety of prisoners continually in mind, the murder raises issues that go beyond the scope of the Narey inquiry. I have, therefore, asked Sir David Ramsbotham, whose inspection of the Maze began on Monday 23 March, to look specifically at the way in which the regime at the Maze impacts on the safety of individual prisoners, and to make recommendations.

As a result of information received during the RUC's investigation, the governor has decided to place LVF prisoners under prison rule 32 for the maintenance of good order and discipline. That is not a punishment, but it does mean that prisoners are kept in cell for up to 23 hours of the day and have restricted association and privileges. Even that reasonable measure resulted in threats to staff, and a number of prisoners refusing prison food, in an effort to overturn the governor's decision.

It is important to bear in mind the fact that Mr. Keys applied to be transferred to the Maze in full knowledge of the conditions there. However, in future, remand prisoners will not move immediately to the Maze, but will be held for a longer period in Maghaberry for assessment. That will give the prison authorities more time to be assured about the safety of such a move.

Martin Narey has described very fully the unique difficulties faced by staff and management at the Maze prison. To quote from his report: The Maze contains more than 500 paramilitary prisoners, from five different factions, some violently opposed to one another, living in segregated accommodation and enjoying the support of significant communities outside the prison. It is staffed by prison officers who live in the same communities.

Staff at all levels in the Prison Service and their families have been subjected to a campaign of intimidation and attack directed against them. Since the start of the troubles, 29 members of staff have been murdered by paramilitaries. In 1996–97 alone, there were 122 reported threats against staff, and a further 50 officers had to be given special protection. That campaign has been waged against staff in an effort by prisoners and their supporters to impose their will. The campaign continues. Last weekend, there was a live bomb attempt on the home of a female prison officer in Portadown and, in the early hours of Monday morning, a bomb exploded under the car of a retired prison officer living in Carrickfergus.

Given the small size of Northern Ireland and its small prison estate, the dispersal of paramilitary prisoners is not possible. The only prudent option is to hold them in one place. Although the concentration of prisoners has many security advantages, there is a price to be paid. It gives the prisoners the opportunity to take concerted action within the prison, including action against staff.

I know of no other prison that operates under such difficult circumstances, or where staff are under such continual threat and pressure. I share Martin Narey's admiration for those who work at the Maze. Despite the difficulties and dangers, for 14 years until last December, they had contained a difficult population without a single escape.

Martin Narey has also drawn attention to the support that paramilitary prisoners have outside prison. One important consequence of that has been faced by me and my predecessors: the danger that actions taken inside prison, for perfectly sound and defensible penological reasons, may result in disruption and unrest outside prison. Against that background, I am aware that staff and management at the Maze have created conditions of safety and humanity which compare favourably with other prisons in the United Kingdom and beyond, and have been entirely open to impartial observers from outside such as the International Committee of the Red Cross.

In the aftermath of the escape and the murders, I am required to make decisions about the security of prisons and prisoners. Like all my predecessors, however, I must make decisions that balance the security of custody with the safety of our staff. I must also make decisions that balance the requirements of imprisonment with the wider requirements of public order and public safety.

The Government have already taken significant steps to improve security at the Maze prison. In March 1997, a tunnel was found in H block 7. It was the subject of an inquiry by the previous Government, carried out by John Steele. Following the election of the present Government, we have pursued the implementation of the Steele recommendations. Specifically, morning and evening head counts are being taken; each day, five randomly selected cells per block are being given a fabric check; and full block searches are now a weekly feature. Material coming from stores is now exchanged on a new-for-old basis, and there is now an accurate picture of the amount and nature of the supplies in the blocks. All prisoners on inter-block movement are being searched.

In addition, a programme of physical security measures has been included in the existing block refurbishment programme. Five blocks have been upgraded to date, and work on the remainder is due for completion by mid-August.

Martin Narey has drawn attention to a number of important lapses in security at the Maze. He has made 59 recommendations that he considers will represent real improvements for staff and prisoners.

As Martin Narey said in his report, changes have already been made. In particular, the governor has taken the initiative to put in place regular random full block searches; regular security checks of H block fences; new arrangements for weekend coverage of staffing shortfalls on visits; new arrangements for searching prisoners on visits and for X-raying parcels; and new arrangements for counting visitors at parties.

Some of the remaining recommendations will be taken forward immediately, now that the report has been published. Other recommendations require some detailed consideration; the necessary project teams are being put in place, for instance, to look at security of the roofs of the buildings and improved processes for dealing with visitors.

Some of the issues to be considered vary in their complexity. However, as an assurance of our determination to act on the recommendations and to tighten security, I undertake to make available to Parliament, in three months' time, a progress report on implementation. In addition, and going beyond the recommendations, we have set up a security audit team, which will begin to work immediately and which will provide the chief executive of the Prison Service with the necessary assurance that changes have been made and are working effectively. That may seem to be a small item, but many changes have been recommended over the years in relation to the Maze, and holding a regular security audit will give us the information to know that the change is taking place.

Finally, I should like to deal with the on-going management of the Maze. Martin Narey has not only recorded a number of lapses in security, but dealt with wider matters to do with the safe and secure running of the prison. Those centre on improving the quality of general management and enhancing staff morale and confidence.

The report suggests that the shortcomings cannot be attributed to individuals, but are the result of a slow, but long-running, deterioration caused by staff fears of the consequences of managing paramilitary prisoners, and by the absence of effective middle management.

The shortcomings have also emerged because there is no easy way of dealing with the Maze and the difficult prisoners it contains. The simple truth, which Martin Narey acknowledges, is that the Maze is different, and the policies operated by successive Governments, which we inherited, have reflected exactly that fact.

I could continue with the status quo, but I consider that unacceptable, or I could turn the clock back at the Maze and reassert the sort of regime that operated during the 1980s. However, in my view, turning the clock back would be at a price within the prison and within the community that no reasonable person would be prepared to pay; certainly, no previous Government have taken a different view.

We recognise the problems, but that is not an excuse for complacency. One irony is that the shortcomings noted by Martin Narey had been noted by the Prison Service long before December of last year, and were beginning to be acted on. They were the reason why Martin Mogg, the most senior governor available within the Northern Ireland Prison Service, together with a new management team, was put in place in October 1997 to take over the running of the Maze. Martin Mogg's appointment is temporary, to ensure the vigorous implementation of the Steele recommendations. I am pleased to note Martin Narey's acknowledgement of the good progress that the team has been making.

However, the fact remains, as Martin Narey has concluded, that the challenge of the Maze is greater than that of any other establishment in the United Kingdom". I regard it as critical, therefore, that we act as quickly as possible on the Narey inquiry's recommendations. I assure the House that we will do so.

Implementing the Narey report in full will be a considerable task for the Northern Ireland Prison Service. However, I am confident that it will meet the challenge, and I am confident that when it receives the report in three months, and with the security audit, the House will see that challenge being met.

Mr. Andrew MacKay (Bracknell)

May I thank the Minister of State, the hon. Member of East Kilbride (Mr. Ingram), for his courtesy and help in ensuring that I received this report in good time? The Secretary of State's statement is greatly appreciated.

When two prisoners in the custody of the Government are murdered that is a deeply shocking affair, and it is right and proper to have a full and thorough investigation. As the Secretary of State is aware, I would have preferred a full independent inquiry: I asked for that when Wright was murdered at the turn of the year.

As a result of the inquiry and the ensuing publicity, our constituents on the mainland have been surprised and appalled at the regime in the Maze. They were perhaps not aware of the special circumstances of that prison, which have rightly been explained by the Secretary of State and by Mr. Narey. The most particular circumstance is that the prison officers and their families live in the community and are under constant threat. I associate myself with the Secretary of State's remarks about those deeply brave and courageous men and women, who are doing jobs that most of us would not be prepared to do.

Will the Secretary of State confirm that the Narey report is an interim report? It has made some initial recommendations that, on first glance, the Secretary of State is right to implement. However, more needs to be done. Sir David Ramsbotham, the chief inspector of prisons, is looking into life at the Maze and will report soon. I realise that there may be security implications, but will the Secretary of State publish that report in full if possible? Will she also make a statement to the House shortly after it is published?

The Secretary of State has my absolute assurance, on behalf of the Opposition, that, we are seeking, albeit with the benefit of hindsight, like everyone else, to ensure a better and more productive regime in the Maze. We are not looking for scapegoats or to blame others. We shall assist her to improve the regime in the Maze so that the dreadful murders and other events that have occurred will not be repeated.

Marjorie Mowlam

I thank the hon. Member for his comments. I agree with him that the murders were deeply shocking, and no one wants such acts to be repeated.

I was aware that an independent inquiry was the hon. Gentleman's desired outcome. When I decided whether to instigate a report or an inquiry, I considered speed. An inquiry would have taken much longer, and I believed that action should be taken quickly. I also considered decisions by previous Governments. In the past 15 years, during which there were two murders at the Crumlin road gaol, there was no independent inquiry. I decided that the method chosen would allow a thorough investigation with a specific date for completion and recommendations for implementation.

The hon. Gentleman is correct that the report by Sir David Ramsbotham has a wider remit: we widened it after the murder of Mr. Keys. I look forward to the publication of that report in the near future, with, as he rightly said, the proviso that there are no security implications. We also had to take security into account for the Narey report, and I am pleased that we were able to publish it in full. Although Sir David Ramsbotham's report is more extensive, it is the usual inspection, so it would not normally be brought before the House, but I hear what the hon. Gentleman says.

Dr. Norman A. Godman (Greenock and Inverclyde)

I have every sympathy with the prison officers of Northern Ireland. Anyone with any knowledge of prisons—military or civilian—in parliamentary democracies knows that accommodations must be made between staff and prisoners; but why are those prisoners allowed to adorn their living quarters with flagrantly offensive murals? Moreover, is it true that they have unhindered access to mobile phones?

Marjorie Mowlam

As my hon. Friend said at the outset, a balance is needed between security and the safety of prison staff, and the necessary judgments must be made to achieve that balance.

The murals are in all the blocks. All the different groups have them on the walls, and—as my hon. Friend knows better than most—they are to be found in the communities as well. Let me put my view succinctly: I believe that the amount of force that would be required to remove them permanently is disproportionate to the extent of the problem. That is the decision we made, and, as hon. Members on both sides of the House are aware, the murals have been there for many years.

Many allegations are made in the papers about behaviour in the Maze, most of them without foundation. Prisoners are not permitted to have mobile phones. Mobile phones that have been found have been seized, and there is no evidence to suggest that they are currently being used. Prisoners do, however, have phonecards, and there are telephone boxes on each wing.

Mr. Phil Willis (Harrogate and Knaresborough)

The Liberal Democrats also support the publication of the Narey report. Although it will take some time for us to study all 59 recommendations, I hope that the Secretary of State will accept our support for a very challenging and sensitive document.

Can the Secretary of State assure the House that she will seek the views of the prison officers and line managers who will have to implement the proposals? It is crucial that we do not just make statements rightly praising the courage of the prison officers, but ensure that those who must implement the proposals are given the utmost support and consideration.

Prison safety remains a concern, especially after the appalling murder of David Keys. There is currently a 23-hour protective lockdown each day for LVF prisoners. We note what the Secretary of State said about Sir David Ramsbotham's investigation, but does she accept that the sooner that investigation is finished and a statement is made to the House, the sooner we shall be able to get on with the job of satisfying not only the public in Northern Ireland, but the prisoner community?

Marjorie Mowlam

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his party's support. I appreciate that Liberal Democrats will want to examine the 59 recommendations in the report; if they want to make further points after doing so, we shall be happy to consider them.

Question accordingly agreed to. I certainly assure the House that the implementation of the recommendations will rely on sensible discussion and negotiation with staff, line managers and members of the Prison Officers Associations. My hon. Friend the Member for East Kilbride (Mr. Ingram), the Minister with responsibility for security, met members of the POA this week in preparation for the publication of the Narey report, and I shall be meeting them next week or the week after to discuss the details.

I echo the hon. Gentleman's comments about the Ramsbotham report. Of course we want to get it into the public domain as quickly as possible. The one thing that prisons need is stability; uncertainty and a lack of information are not helpful, as in so many other Northern Ireland matters. There was a slight delay in the publication of the Narey report, because we had sought legal advice in order not to inhibit the possibility of criminal prosecutions where they are pending. Similarly, there may be a slight delay in the publication of the Ramsbotham report, but it will be no longer than is absolutely necessary.

Mr. Ken Maginnis (Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

May I first acknowledge the courtesy with which Martin Narey listened to my hon. Friend the Member for Lagan Valley (Mr. Donaldson) and me when we visited him, and may I thank the Secretary of State for giving us a preview of the report so that we were able to read it before coming here?

I am disappointed that the report does not deal with the fundamentals that I think it should have dealt with. Whatever superfluity of words the Secretary of State uses to divert attention from the shameful reality that the Prison Service in Northern Ireland operates on a prisoner self-regulatory basis, and however euphemistic the language of Martin Narey with his "regrettables" and "unfortunates", there is no escaping the fact that prison management in Northern Ireland falls far short of the justifiable expectation of the predominantly law-abiding society in Northern Ireland.

The Narey report and the Secretary of State's response are little short of a terrorists charter for paramilitaries to continue—[Interruption.] Listen for once. We have to live there. It is a terrorists charter for paramilitaries to continue to impose by violence and the threat of violence a lawless and undemocratic regime, not only inside our prisons but outside, as is admitted in the report.

Is not the Secretary of State's passive acceptance of this state of affairs so pitiful as to suggest that the Northern Ireland Office team is not fit for high office? When will it, after almost a year, begin to govern? When will it resist the bully-boy tactics of terrorists, in the way that the Prime Minister seems to have rejected the bully-boy tactics of Taoiseach Ahern over the past 24 or 48 hours? This is an inadequate response to murder and mayhem in our prisons. We can only hope that, not having had an independent inquiry, we can have something substantial from Sir David Ramsbotham when he carries out his inspection so that we can begin to get rid of the anarchy that pervades our prison system.

Marjorie Mowlam

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his comments. He refers to the Prison Service as self-regulatory. I would say that of any prison—my hon. Friend the Minister of State uses that language. Yes, it is self-regulatory, in the sense that there needs to be communication between the prisoners and the prison management and officers, as there is in any prison in the United Kingdom. The only difference in relation to the Maze is the backdrop. There are 500 paramilitary prisoners in one place, and the difference is that those prisoners are willing to consider murdering each other and to consider threatening the lives of prison staff and their families, and they can bring some civil disobedience to the streets of Northern Ireland. Those three conditions do not necessarily apply in other prisons. With that backdrop, there will be what the hon. Gentleman calls self-regulation, but I call co-operation and understanding, which are needed for any prison to function.

The hon. Gentleman said that the Northern Ireland team is not fit for high office. I do not know whether he was referring to the politicians or to the civil servants. If he was referring to the politicians, that is a matter of his view and that is fine. On a difficult issue, Northern Ireland civil servants work very hard and do their utmost in difficult circumstances.

The hon. Gentleman's last point was about my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and the Taoiseach. What they were trying to do last night was no different from what we need to do on so many problems in Northern Ireland, which is to seek some kind of accommodation and understanding, and to talk.

Mr. Tom King (Bridgwater)

Is the right hon. Lady aware that all who have shared in the responsibility in Northern Ireland will know that the problem of adequately containing the largest group of convicted terrorists in western Europe is challenge enough? Certainly, the House would join warmly in supporting her tribute to all those working in the Prison Service and the Northern Ireland Office, as my hon. Friend the Member for Bracknell (Mr. MacKay) did. Clearly, a balance must be struck in the interests of the wider community and in the interests of security.

While the House will study with great interest the many recommendations in the Narey report, I thought none so important as the emphasis on frequent and random searches, because it is one thing to contain prisoners, but it is quite another if prison officers are being asked to contain armed prisoners.

Marjorie Mowlam

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his opening comments. I agree that a balance needs to be struck and that the overriding issue is the security of the wider community. In that sense, the Prison Service has been doing a good job since the tunnel under the Maze was discovered in March last year, during the previous Government's period in office. The recommendations made then dealt exactly with the points he has raised, and we were working on their implementation in October last year.

Mr. Gordon Prentice (Pendle)

Will my right hon. Friend say more about the treatment of remand prisoners? She said in her statement that no remand prisoner would be sent automatically to the Maze, but would be held back for assessment. Given the picture that she has painted of the Maze and its inmates, does she agree that it would be better for all remand prisoners to be sent to prisons other than the Maze—perhaps even on the mainland? Could she say a word or two about the form of the assessment of remand prisoners to ascertain whether they should be sent to the Maze?

Marjorie Mowlam

When my hon. Friend has a chance to look at the details of the report—that is not a criticism; he will not have had a chance to read the whole report—he will see that the treatment of remand prisoners is covered in some detail. There are positive recommendations which, no doubt, we will be able to implement speedily. Remand prisoners are not sent automatically to the Maze. They arrive at Maghaberry and if they ask to be transferred, they are transferred—the choice is left to them. The conditions are written down and given to them. One of the changes that could make a difference would be prisoners being given slightly longer to consider their position. In relation to Mr. Keys, he himself chose to go, sadly.

Mr. Andrew Hunter (Basingstoke)

While I acknowledge that the Maze is a very different and difficult prison to run, can it not be argued—with the advantage of hindsight—that some well-intended, if mistaken, decisions have been made in the past? Is it not a matter of regret that Mr. Narey has ducked one central issue—that to achieve an acceptable level of security at the Maze, it is essential for prison officers to patrol residential areas as well as search them occasionally, sometimes by prior arrangement with the prisoners?

Marjorie Mowlam

I agree with the hon. Gentleman that hindsight is a wonderful thing, but, not having it at the time, previous Governments have adopted particular policies. Narey is a positive report because it looks to the future. We could spend the next five or 10 minutes going over the past 15 years, but that would not help us or the hon. Gentleman. We must look at the gradual deterioration in the implementation of some of the regulations, and we must do what both Steele and Narey recommended—to begin to be sure that individual searches, cell searches or unit searches happen on a regular and random basis, and to be sure that the kind of checks that are needed are put in place. The hon. Gentleman and I would agree on that.

Ms Margaret Moran (Luton, South)

Will my right hon. Friend accept the support of the majority of hon. Members for the actions that she has outlined to deal with the very difficult situation in the Maze? In particular, I welcome her comments about the security audit. She referred to the delay in the publication of the report. Will she expand on the reasons behind that?

Marjorie Mowlam

I thank my hon. Friend for her opening comments. We were criticised by parts of the press for the delay in publication. There were two reasons for the delay. First, after receiving the report, we wanted to consider it in detail—my hon. Friend the Member for East Kilbride and I wanted to be sure that we could tell the House that we could implement all 59 recommendations. We are now sure that we can, and the security audit and the report in three months will show that we have done so. Secondly—I did not know this before—such reports have to be checked to ensure that no difficulty will be caused to criminal cases being brought against people accused of murder, and it took time for the report to be considered by another Department.

Mr. Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield)

The Northern Ireland Prison Service clearly has an extremely difficult job—that is accepted on both sides of the House. Is the Secretary of State aware that people on both sides of the Irish sea—in Northern Ireland and here—are deeply concerned about the regime at the Maze prison, on which the report by Sir David Ramsbotham may, in due course, shed more light? Is not it wrong that she and even my right hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater (Mr. King), who is no longer in his place, have described as paramilitaries or terrorists people who are, in fact, no more than vicious, brutal criminals, and should be treated as such? The regime that they experience should reflect appropriately the vicious crimes that they have perpetrated.

I share some of the grave concerns expressed by the spokesman for the Ulster Unionist party, the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Mr. Maginnis), about the current regime. Does the right hon. Lady accept that the regime that operated in the 1980s, which she said was no longer acceptable, should be reconsidered, as it seemed to be rather more effective than the current regime?

Marjorie Mowlam

I note the hon. Gentleman's comments, but there is a difference between rhetoric and reality, as those who have served in Labour and Conservative Governments know.

Mr. Harry Barnes (North-East Derbyshire)

In the long run, will not the serious problems at the Maze be solved only by successful outcomes of the peace process and the referendum? Is it not the duty of every hon. Member to ensure that the process is pushed forward, so that those problems can be tackled?

Marjorie Mowlam

Yes.

Mr. Andrew Robathan (Blaby)

With the benefit of hindsight, does the right hon. Lady consider that her visit to the Maze at Christmas contributed to good order and discipline in the prison and to a reduction in violence both inside and outside the prison, or does she think that it enhanced the status and authority of convicted criminals and terrorist godfathers?

Marjorie Mowlam

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his comments. No, if I had thought that the visit would have either undermined the rule of law or enhanced the standing of people in the Maze, I would not have made it. I think that it was an extra step towards ensuring what was referred to in the previous question—the backdrop of a peaceful settlement in Northern Ireland.

Mr. Martin Salter (Reading, West)

On a scale of one to 100, where would my right hon. Friend place the recent contribution of the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Mr. Maginnis) towards a positive solution to the serious security problems that bedevil Northern Ireland?

Marjorie Mowlam

I do not think that it would be helpful to answer that question.

Mr. Nicholas Soames (Mid-Sussex)

I have every sympathy with the right hon. Lady in having to deal with this fiendishly difficult problem, but does she agree that it would be sensible to assess the security profile of remand prisoners who choose to go to the Maze? In the case of Mr. David Keys, there was a clear likelihood that he would be under threat. Under such circumstances, do not the Prison Service, the military and the intelligence services have a duty, if necessary, to prevent such prisoners from going to the Maze?

Marjorie Mowlam

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question. That is done at the moment, and, as a result of the Narey recommendations, the matter will be examined in more detail.

Mr. Jeffrey Donaldson (Lagan Valley)

As the Maze is in my constituency, I have followed the inquiry with great interest. Having glanced through Mr. Narey's report, I am concerned about getting at the real truth behind Billy Wright's murder and Liam Averill's escape. There are many inadequacies in the report.

I was alarmed to read that, in the course of his inquiry, Mr. Narey met officials from the Irish Government. One wonders what their role is in the management of prisons in Northern Ireland. I was amazed to find that he also met the OCs of all the paramilitary groups in the prison except the INLA. One wonders what their role was.

My hon. Friend the Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Mr. Maginnis) spoke of the system of self-regulation in Northern Ireland's prisons. There can be no doubt that that system has contributed to two murders and one escape in recent weeks; until it is changed, problems will continue and the Secretary of State will continue to say that she cannot guarantee the safety of prisoners. That is most regrettable. Control of the wings in the prisons has been given over to the paramilitary groupings, and that must be reversed.

It is regrettable that no individual or group of individuals has been brought to account for serious breaches of security that not only led to the two murders and the escape but contributed to a serious deterioration of the situation in Northern Ireland generally. Will the Secretary of State undertake to review again the management of the Prison Service in Northern Ireland? My constituents cannot have confidence in the service on the basis of the report.

Marjorie Mowlam

I shall answer those points in turn. If it was simply a question of heads rolling, that would be cheap and unrealistic and would not acknowledge the complexities and difficulties that exist in the Maze. There is a question of effective middle management, and I assure the hon. Gentleman that that is being investigated. The murder of Billy Wright is not covered in the report because it was not in its remit. An RUC investigation is being conducted into exactly that question.

The hon. Gentleman listed some people to whom Mr. Narey talked. He chose whom he talked to, and when people came to him to give evidence I presume that he listened to them. The hon. Gentleman also referred to self-regulation, as he called it, and to the murders that have taken place and why we cannot do better. At the risk of alienating my Scottish, Welsh and English colleagues, let me say that there have been two murders and one escape in the Maze in the past 14 years, while—

Mr. Maginnis

No, in the past month.

Marjorie Mowlam

Well, they may have happened in the past month, but they are the only ones in the past 14 years. In Scotland, there have been six murders in the past 10 years, and in England and Wales there have been 13 in the past six years. I am merely putting the matter in context.