HC Deb 04 November 1997 vol 300 cc101-2
5. Mrs. Ann Winterton

What estimate he has made of the number of extra prison places he expects to create in the next five years. [12042]

Mr. Dewar

On present plans, some 700 extra prisoner places will be created over the next five years.

Mrs. Winterton

Bearing in mind the Government's pledge to be tough on crime and the recent statement by the right hon. Member for Hamilton, South (Mr. Robertson) that sentences should mean what they say, will the Secretary of State confirm whether it is the Government's policy to follow their predecessors' policy and end automatic early release from prison, or have they gone soft on that as well? What are the implications for extra prison places in future?

Mr. Dewar

We are, of course, looking carefully at the Crime and Punishment (Scotland) Act 1997 and we have implemented some of the important provisions we felt were justified and could be implemented immediately. The hon. Lady has referred particularly to parole. I am not in favour of implementation of the changes at this stage because I have respect for the Prison Service and because we need to ensure that inmates have an incentive to behave well and to obey the rules. We had very unfortunate experiences in the past—the hon. Lady is, like me, enough of a veteran to remember them—when that incentive was destroyed and I would not like to revisit that experience. We will use our judgment and consider what is right for the criminal justice system of Scotland, for the public and for those working in the system.

Mr. Browne

A new prison is to be built in my constituency. Welcome as the job opportunities it brings are, I believe that it is about time we moved on from the Tory obsession with prison building and longer sentences. Is it not about time that we started looking at law and order in a much wider context? Is it not a sad reality that the consumption of alcohol is closely related to crime and criminal behaviour? Is it not important, and probably more effective, to have proper public health programmes and social programmes to tackle the causes rather than to concentrate only on prison building and sentencing?

Mr. Dewar

I have some sympathy with what my hon. Friend says. As the daily prison population in Scotland has risen very substantially, causing considerable problems for the Prison Service, it is important that we should examine sensibly the alternatives to custodial care. That is not a soft option, as Conservative barrackers will shout, but a matter of prevention and of dealing with matters such as alcohol abuse properly; hence the new powers on drinking in public places that we have introduced and our attempts to improve facilities for treating the alcohol problem both in and out of the prison system. We are also considering other measures, such as the tagging system. That was once controversial, but I believe that it is right to have pilot tests in Scotland.

Sir Robert Smith

On the expansion of prison places, does the Secretary of State yet have an estimate of the date by which he will have tackled the problem of overcrowding in Scottish prisons?

Mr. Dewar

As the hon. Gentleman recognises, we face a problem in that respect, although it is perhaps not as acute as in other parts of the United Kingdom. That is not an excuse for ignoring or not attempting to tackle it, but I am chary of setting arbitrary dates because I am aware of the increase in the prison population. While the Bowhouse project and the 700 places in the next five years to which I referred should take much of the strain, it may be that the impact on time cannot be exactly judged for the reasons that I have given. I spent some time yesterday with the Parole Board, which brought me sharply face to face with the problems that it encounters and the stress of its increasing work load. I pay tribute to its work, which is largely unsung and often unappreciated by the wider public.