§ 4. Mr. Laurence RobertsonTo ask the Secretary of State for International Development if she will make a statement on the steps that her Department is taking to ensure that aid from the United Kingdom (a) reaches and helps the world's poorest people and (b) is not kept by their Governments. [8359]
§ Clare ShortWe have vigorous appraisal, monitoring, accounting and auditing procedures to ensure, so far as is humanly possible, that our development assistance is used for the purpose intended. The UK record is one of the best, although we must always be vigilant. We have strengthened our commitment to poverty eradication. Where possible, we hope to work in partnership with Governments to enlarge their capacity to provide basic services to the poor of their countries.
§ Mr. RobertsonI am grateful to the Secretary of State for that answer. Given that UNESCO cleaned up its act because the United Kingdom and the United States left 937 some years ago, how does the Secretary of State intend to ensure that any money that we give it is used wisely? After all, we have now re-entered UNESCO and that august body tends to deal at Government level.
§ Clare ShortIf the hon. Gentleman considers the record, he will see that the improvement in the performance of UNESCO came with the appointment of the existing director general, who is widely admired throughout the world and has done an extremely good job. When one looks at the process of reform it is not true to say that the improvement was caused by countries leaving. In general, in all the United Nations institutions, we are determined to have the most powerful and efficient system possible so that we can achieve the current objective of a big advance in poverty eradication, which will in turn prevent conflict and war. We are working within the system and backing the Secretary-General's reform proposals to achieve those objectives.
§ Ann ClwydAs aid to Indonesia has in the past been tied to arms deals, does my right hon. Friend see any good reason why Indonesia, which is not one of the world's poorest countries, should any longer receive aid from Britain?
§ Clare ShortIt would be illegal for there to be any link between arms selling and aid, and I give my hon. Friend the absolute undertaking that under this Administration there will never be even a remote connection between aid spend and any arms trading. As my hon. Friend knows, we have been reviewing our aid policies throughout the world. In the case of Indonesia, we have a big project in relation to sustainable forestry and improving the livelihoods of poor people who live in the forests. That project has done some excellent work and will continue.
I am also considering whether we can do any useful work with non-governmental organisations in East Timor or in strengthening democratic trade unionism in Indonesia where, as my hon. Friend will know, there has been great oppression. That is the direction of my thinking on the programmes that we are rightly undertaking in Indonesia. I shall discuss with the House any further proposals that come forward.
§ Dr. TongeI thank the Minister for that reply, but may I press her further? Does she agree that the continuing sale of Hawk jets to Indonesia is damaging human rights in that country and damaging the poor in East Timor? Does she agree that the Government should revoke the export licence granted by the previous Government for Indonesia, especially as no financial penalties would be incurred in so doing?
§ Clare ShortAs I am sure that the hon. Lady knows, that is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary, who has made it clear that he will shortly make a statement on that area of policy. The hon. Lady would not expect me to pre-empt that today.
§ Rev. Martin SmythDoes the Secretary of State agree that, while Governments have a role to play, nongovernmental organisations have sometimes done the best work in reaching the poorest people? Does she also agree 938 that they could perhaps co-operate better sometimes so as not to spend so much money on their own staffing rather than on reaching the poor to supply their needs?
§ Clare ShortI agree that the voluntary sector has done wonderful work across the world. That is clear evidence that the people of the United Kingdom have generous hearts and care about the morality of the suffering and poverty in the world. It is the duty of Governments and the voluntary sector to spend every penny as efficiently as possible. We want to work with Governments who share our aims of poverty eradication. If the capacity of a Government to deliver services to the poor in their country is strengthened, a permanent advance is made in the conditions for those poor people. Where that is not possible, we shall continue to work with nongovernmental organisations and we shall always look for the greatest possible efficiency.
§ Mr. David MarshallDoes my right hon. Friend agree that perhaps one of the best ways of ensuring that aid reaches those who need it most is to give less cash and more materials and goods manufactured in this country and to make greater use of people in this country whose experience and assets could contribute to countries that need their skills?
§ Clare ShortWith respect, I am not sure that I fully agree with my hon. Friend. Aid should be transitional. We should look forward to a day when there will be no aid because we have helped to develop in the poorest countries the capacity to provide services to their poor people and to create an economic climate to attract private investment. Creating flourishing economies in the poorest countries will also benefit our own economy, with more trade for everyone. We want progress along those lines. Rather than using people from Britain, it might be better to train a lot of people in a needy country, because that would create a larger capacity in that country, which would remain permanently.
§ Mr. HunterGiven the importance of nongovernmental organisations in ensuring the effectiveness and efficiency of our aid budget, is it the Government's policy to increase the proportion of that budget administered by non-governmental organisations?
§ Clare ShortAs I hope that I have already made clear, it is our purpose, in signing up so firmly to the international poverty eradication targets, to look for partner Governments in the least developed countries—[Interruption.]
§ Madam SpeakerOrder. The hon. Member for Blyth Valley (Mr. Campbell) is disturbing the House.
§ Clare ShortWe want to work with partner Governments who also sign up to the poverty eradication targets. If we can work together, in harmony with the World bank and other donors, there is a better prospect of securing a greater advance in the poorest countries. That is our preferred route, but it is not always possible to work in that way in all conditions and in all countries. In other situations, we work with NGOs. Our aim is to enlarge the capacity of poor countries to provide services to their poor 939 people and to create economic conditions that will attract investment and promote sustainable economic growth in those countries.