HC Deb 28 January 1997 vol 289 cc138-41
4. Mr. Winnick

To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what representations he received during the recent cold weather about cold weather payments. [11372]

10. Mr. Barry Jones

To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what assessment he has made of the effectiveness of his cold weather payments; and if he will make a statement. [11378]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Social Security (Mr. Roger Evans)

We received 88 letters about the cold weather payments scheme during the recent cold period.

The scheme works well, responding flexibly to target help where it is most needed. So far this winter, over 5 million payments, worth over £43 million, have been made to almost 3 million people.

Mr. Winnick

Is the Minister aware that when some of my hon. Friends and I went to No. 10 Downing street at the end of December to deliver a letter, although it had been extremely cold for some 10 days, no cold weather payments had been made during that time, causing untold misery and hardship to many pensioners on low incomes? Why are the Government so determined to oppose the measure that my hon. Friend the Member for Preston (Mrs. Wise) wanted to introduce to deal with the chill factor? Does that not show that the Government do not care a damn about those in need?

Mr. Evans

No. According to paragraph 9.7 of the advice from the Meteorological Office that we took last summer and placed in the Library, In much of the country, the additional domestic heating requirements generated as a result of the effect of the exposure of houses to wind are too small and too highly variable to be included sensibly in such a scheme. It is also clear that the Cold Weather Payments (Wind Chill Factor) Bill proposed by the hon. Member for Preston (Mrs. Wise) did not explain how to take the chill factor into account in a sensible, workable or practicable fashion. It would have caused chaos.

The hon. Gentleman—or, if not the hon. Gentleman, his Front Bench—ought to answer this point. He may wish to spend more money, but the hon. Lady's Bill—vague though it is—would cost several hundred million pounds a year more during a winter as severe as last winter.

Mr. Jones

Will the Minister look at the undoubted anomalies in this system? For example, in my constituency of Deeside payments are dictated by readings at RAF Valley, 90 miles to the west and warmed by the Irish sea. When the polar wind blew, many pensioners' domestic budgets were blown to smithereens because they only had enough money to heat their homes. Will the Minister please be more generous, and review the system thoroughly?

Mr. Evans

Every summer we ask the Meteorological Office to review whether the linking of particular parts of constituencies with particular weather stations is appropriate. The greater part of the hon. Gentleman's constituency is dealt with from Crosby, which has triggered a cold weather payment once this winter.

Obviously, the detailed workings of the scheme are reviewed after every winter. Let me make it clear, however, that responding to Opposition calls to extend the payments to all pensioners, or to all people on income support, would cost between £200 million and £300 million a year more than was spent this year or last year. If the commitment of the right hon. Member for Dunfermline, East (Mr. Brown) to the control totals is to be believed, that is an expenditure commitment that must be met by a Labour cut.

Mr. Batiste

Does my hon. Friend realise that measurements taken in Leeds city centre are consistently some degrees warmer than those in the rural hinterland, which includes much of my constituency? When he speaks again to the Meteorological Office, will he ask it to review where it takes its measurements in various parts of west Yorkshire, because they are not limited just to Leeds, so that people's entitlement to this important benefit, which was introduced by the Government, relates to their experience at home?

Mr. Evans

The simple answer to my hon. Friend is yes. If he or any hon. Member wants to make specific points, as numerous hon. Members did last summer, they will of course all be referred to the Meteorological Office and the advice will be carefully considered.

Mrs. Peacock

I welcome what my hon. Friend has said about the number of payments and the amount of money that has been paid, but will he please take up the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Elmet (Mr. Batiste) about the weather centre in the centre of Leeds? Taking measurements there is useless to people in my constituency who live on the hill. My hon. Friend the Minister knows that I have made representations on the matter. Will he please take it back to the Meteorological Office?

Mr. Evans

The simple answer is yes. My hon. Friend made the points last summer. The Meteorological Office was not persuaded, but I shall be happy to reconsider the matter if there is any further information or if there are any further arguments.

Mr. Thurnham

Will the Minister bear in mind the special needs of voluntary funded hostels such as Bolton's Salvation Army hostel, which faces higher heating charges in cold weather, but whose tenants are free to spend their supplements as they wish? Has he any encouraging message for voluntary fund raisers who have to raise the money to keep hostels going?

Mr. Evans

That is a separate issue from the cold weather payment scheme that we have been discussing.

Mr. McLeish

Will the Minister explain why, after the Secretary of State for Social Security has spent an extra £15 billion on welfare in the past four years, pensioners and poor families throughout Britain still have to make a choice between eating and heating? Does the Minister accept that cuts in home insulation and the imposition of value added tax on fuel have only worsened the plight of the poorest people in society, especially in relation to fuel poverty? Does he agree that the deliberate sabotaging of the recent Cold Weather Payments (Wind Chill Factor) Bill and the failure to set up a trial project in Scotland only add insult to injury? Surely fuel poverty is a scandal in 1997. When will the Government start to take the matter seriously?

Mr. Evans

The House and the country will take the hon. Gentleman seriously when he tells us exactly what he is prepared to spend and on what. Since 1991, £350 million has been paid out for the home energy efficiency payment scheme and no less than 10 per cent. of the United Kingdom housing stock has had its insulation improved as a result of the scheme. I make it absolutely clear to the hon. Gentleman, and to anyone else who doubts it, that, if he wishes to extend the cold weather payment scheme to everyone on income support and to all pensioners, it will cost £250 million to £300 million a year more in a winter of last year's severity.