Welsh Assembly (Hansard, 20 January 1997)

§ 8. Mr. Hendry
To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many representations he has received on a referendum for a Welsh Assembly. [9914]

§ Mr. Hague
Three.

§ Mr. Hendry
That is an unbelievable reply. Does not my right hon. Friend find it astonishing that only one person in a million in Wales has bothered to make representations on that centrepiece of Labour party policy? Does not that show that the people of Wales are not prepared to put inward investment and their new jobs at risk by going down that line? Does it not show also that they know that they would end up paying more in taxes to pay for a Welsh Assembly, and that a Labour Government in Wales would end in tears there, as it would in the rest of the country?

§ Mr. Hague
My hon. Friend's suspicions may be right. In any referendum, the people of Wales would not vote for such a time-wasting and self-defeating charade. The encouraging news for the people of Wales is that an increasing number of Opposition Members would not vote for such a time-wasting and self-defeating charade. Two more Opposition Members announced last week that they would oppose the policy of the Labour party in any referendum—the hon. Members for Rhondda (Mr. Rogers) and for Ogmore (Sir R. Powell). That news was greeted, ludicrously, by the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Davies) with the statement, "We shall be 611 fighting a united campaign." I am pleased that an increasing number of Opposition Members will join us in arguing at the general election against a referendum on an assembly, against an assembly and against the construction of a body that would be against the true interests of Wales.

§ Mr. Donald Anderson
Does not the fact that only three people bothered to write to the Secretary of State suggest, rather, that people see no relevance in writing to a lame-duck leader of a lame-duck Government?

§ Mr. Hague
There is a lot of quacking to come from us yet. The number of representations shows that the people of Wales regard the subject of devolution as an utter irrelevance to their future. They know that the real way to ensure the continuation of the jobs that have been flowing into Wales in recent years is to continue with the policies and constitutional arrangements that have been in place for many years.

§ Mr. Robathan
When my right hon. Friend considers those three representations, will he bear in mind the fact that Wales is a nation, and that that is important in considering a separate assembly or parliament? Will he consider carefully who should be able to vote? Will people who live in England but who were born in Wales be allowed to vote? Surely they are members of that nation. Will those who live in Wales, such as the hon. Member for Neath (Mr. Hain), who comes from South Africa, be allowed to vote? Should not—

§ Madam Speaker
Order. Will the hon. Gentleman get the question off his chest, and do so rapidly? We have many questions to get through, and I have a lot of Welsh Members to call.

§ Mr. Robathan
Madam Speaker, I shall be applying for an Adjournment debate, of course.
Will my right hon. Friend consider whether all citizens of the United Kingdom should be allowed to determine whether Wales has a separate assembly?

§ Mr. Hague
My hon. Friend raises some interesting questions about whether everyone in the United Kingdom should vote on something that affects the whole United Kingdom—and certainly whether all Welsh people should have a vote rather than only those who are resident in Wales at the time. If we were to witness the tragedy of a Labour Government, Labour Members would have to resolve that question, as well as the question whether their colleagues would be allowed to say what they think in a referendum rather than swallowing the party line that they do not believe is in the true interests of Wales.

§ Mr. Ron Davies
Madam Speaker, I must protest: the Secretary of State is attempting to answer questions about Labour party policy, and I put it to you that that is quite improper. I do not know why the right hon. Gentleman gets so hot under the collar about the prospects of our having a say in our own affairs.
According to the latest independent polls in Wales, 78 per cent. of Welsh people from all walks of life support Labour's plan for a referendum about our proposals for constitutional change. Does the Secretary of State know 612 that last week a group of prominent business men and women in Wales declared their determination to campaign for a yes vote in any future referendum? They understand—presumably the Secretary of State will consider the matter—that a stronger voice in Europe, a distinctive marketing identity and strong public-private partnerships in an open and democratic framework offer a unique opportunity to improve the performance of the Welsh economy. Why does he want to deny us the right to have a say about our destiny? Is it because he enjoys his powers of patronage on behalf of the Conservative party or because he thinks we get better government under the quango state?

§ Mr. Hague
The hon. Gentleman criticises me for answering questions about Labour party policy, but someone has to answer such questions. The last time we asked the hon. Gentleman about Labour party policy regarding an electoral system, he took months to answer and, when he did, two Labour Members joined the opposite camp immediately. That is the kind of answer that we get from the hon. Gentleman.
As for the opinions of business people regarding an assembly, a recent Confederation of British Industry survey found that two out of three businesses believe that an assembly would have a negative economic impact on Wales—and they are right. According to the Institute of Directors, three quarters of businesses surveyed did not want an assembly—and they are right also.