HC Deb 03 December 1997 vol 302 cc340-3
3. Mr. Ruffley

When he plans to publish the Bill setting up an Assembly for Wales. [17472]

Mr. Ron Davies

The Government of Wales Bill was published on 27 November. The Second Reading debate will take place next week and I hope that Royal Assent will be granted by the summer.

In the interim, I have decided to appoint an advisory group to consider the standing orders and other procedures of the Assembly. We want a dynamic, modern and inclusive institution, fit for the new millennium. I am pleased to announce that John Elfed Jones, a distinguished figure in Welsh business and public life, has accepted my invitation to be the chairman of that advisory group.

Mr. Ruffley

Will the Secretary of State explain why he believes that the bulk of the Committee stage of the Bill should be taken away from the Floor of the House? Does he stand by his earlier comments to the effect that Members of Parliament would not be interested in the detail of the Bill?

Mr. Davies

The handling of the Bill is a matter for the Government's business managers and I understand that the usual channels are now considering the matter.

Mr. Bercow

Oh?

Mr. Ruffley

Are they?

Mr. Davies

Perhaps the hon. Gentlemen should discuss it with their own usual channels. It is and always has been my view that adequate time should be provided on the Floor of the House to debate, not only Second Reading, but key contentious clauses. It is also my view that many matters of detail in the legislation will be of particular concern to Welsh Members and would be best discussed in Committee. I should point out that, were the Bill to be referred to a Standing Committee of the House, inevitably Members of Parliament representing English constituencies would have to sit on that Committee, because there are no Conservatives representing Welsh constituencies.

Mr. Donald Anderson

Will my right hon. Friend advise whether there is a Welsh word for Bourbon, since the Conservative party appears to have learnt nothing and forgotten nothing since it emerged from the election with no Members in Wales and also suffered a defeat in the referendum? Will he assure the House that he will consider seriously the Swansea, Aberystwyth, Mold option for the site of the Assembly, which would not only avoid the centralisation of Cardiff but reflect the diversity which is part of the joy of our Wales?

Mr. Davies

Many Welsh words readily come to mind to describe Conservative Members, but I must confess that my knowledge is not sufficiently comprehensive to give the Welsh translation of Bourbon. However, I can assure my hon. Friend that his proposition, and that for Swansea, are in the consultative document which I shall publish tomorrow.

Mr. Llwyd

Now that the Bill has been published and we are aware that agriculture will be one of the core responsibilities of the forthcoming Assembly, I remind the right hon. Gentleman that there is a huge crisis in Welsh agriculture, so when he sees the unions this afternoon, will he not rule anything out? In particular, will he urgently consider agrimonetary compensation and hill livestock compensatory allowances? Surely now is the time to act, not listen.

Mr. Davies

We have to listen, of course, as the hon. Gentleman will understand. Everyone understands the particular difficulties that face the agriculture industry. There are problems that are associated with the high level of the pound at the moment and there is the backlog following 10 years of Conservative failure to deal with the BSE crisis. That has undermined the domestic market and is leading to imports on an unprecedented scale and the inability of British agriculture to compete by exporting its products. Those are matters which I shall be discussing with the representatives of British agriculture. I understand their concerns and I shall listen carefully to what they have to say. Any response will have to be made between the respective Secretaries of State for Northern Ireland, for Scotland and for Wales and the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries of Food in conjunction with the Treasury. However, I shall most certainly listen carefully to the case that is put to me later on today.

Mr. Wilkinson

In the consultative document that will help those who are involved with the legislative process of the Government of Wales Bill, will the right hon. Gentleman consider locating the Assembly on two sites on the European model, one in the north to please the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mr. Jones), and one in the south to please the hon. Member for Swansea, East (Mr. Anderson) and the right hon. Member for Swansea, West (Mr. Williams), and perhaps, on the Luxembourg model, with a secretariat in mid-Wales in between?

Mr. Davies

I have never identified the hon. Gentleman as a particular advocate of things European before, so I take the suggestion that he is now making with a pinch of salt. Propositions in the consultative document will show that it is possible to create an Assembly with one permanent home but accessible and available to people wherever they live throughout Wales. I trust that when the document is published tomorrow the hon. Gentleman will go to the Library, get a copy and let me have his response.

4. Mrs. Ann Winterton

What estimate he has made of the costs of the proposed Welsh Assembly. [17473]

9. Mr. Paterson

If he will make a statement on the cost of the Welsh Assembly. [17479]

Mr. Ron Davies

The costs of setting up and running the Assembly are set out in the explanatory and financial memorandum to the Government of Wales Bill, which was introduced in the House on 26 November.

Mrs. Winterton

Last week, the Secretary of State described Cardiff's Labour-controlled city council as "profoundly wrong and misguided" in declining the financial package on offer to base the Welsh Assembly at Cardiff city hall. However, is it not the right hon. Gentleman himself who is profoundly wrong and misguided in creating a situation where Cardiff and Swansea are at each other's throats by foisting on the people of Wales a job-destroying and expensive bureaucracy which at least three quarters of them did not support in the recent referendum?

Mr. Davies

With the greatest respect to the hon. Lady, I think that she fails to understand the issues. No one has foisted an Assembly on to the people of Wales.

In the general election in May 1997, the people of Wales rejected the Conservative party in its entirety. Only the Conservative party stood for the status quo. Every Member of Parliament elected for a Welsh constituency in May 1997 was elected on the basis of supporting constitutional change. In September, in a referendum, the people of Wales had the opportunity, very specifically, very directly, to approve those proposals. They did so, and it is my responsibility to ensure that that legislation passes through the House of Commons; I will fulfil that responsibility.

Mr. Paterson

The referendum showed that an overwhelming majority of Welsh people do not want the Assembly. Will the Secretary of State please explain why £100 million over four years is better spent on a talking shop for superannuated county councillors than on front-line services such as health, schools or—topically this week—Welsh farmers?

Mr. Davies

The hon. Gentleman's comments are as offensive as they are irrelevant. In September this year, the people of Wales had the opportunity to vote on the Government's proposals. The rules for the referendum were laid down by Parliament. The people of Wales followed those rules, the referendum was won and, on that basis, the Government of Wales Bill will pass through Parliament.