§ 33. Ann ClwydWhat assessment he has made of the impact of the contacts between the Church's ethical investment working group and GEC on GEC's arms exporting policy. [16829]
§ The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Jack Straw)In the absence of my hon. Friend the 16 Member for Middlesbrough (Mr. Bell), I am answering these questions as a Church Commissioner and as the member of the Cabinet with responsibility for Church matters.
The commissioners believe that the impact has been positive. The ethical investment working group put four questions to the company at its annual general meeting on 5 September as an encouragement to GEC to disclose hopeful information in a public arena about its defence-related business. The group will continue to inform itself about GEC's business strategy and will maintain contact with the company.
§ Ann ClwydI am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that answer. May I put it to him, however, that since the so-called dialogue began, GEC has continually expanded its defence manufacturing and increased its exports to Indonesia—a country with one of the worst human rights records? Is there any point in this dialogue if that is the result?
§ Mr. StrawI think that there is. It is fair to say that the commissioners are now being much more proactive about their investments in pursuit of their approach not to invest in any company whose main business is in armaments, gambling, breweries, distilleries, tobacco or newspapers.
I understand that, over the past three years, GEC's exports to Indonesia have totalled only £20 million and comprised simulation and training equipment for the navy, short-wave broadcasting equipment for the national network, transmitters for commercial broadcasters and five omniphones.
§ Mr. BurnsDoes the Home Secretary appreciate that, in a constituency with four GEC companies in it, a distinction must be drawn between weapons and weapons systems that are produced for the bona fide defence of a country from external attack and weapons such as land mines, that are universally condemned?
§ Mr. StrawThe hon. Gentleman makes an entirely fair point. Speaking not as a Church Commissioner but as the Member of Parliament for Blackburn, I must tell the House that many of my constituents' jobs depend on defence contractors. It is also fair to add that NATO countries account for some £2 billion of the £2.4 billion—85 per cent.—of GEC defence sales.