§ 10. Mr. AingerTo ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he last met (i) the Indonesian ambassador and (ii) Indonesian Government representatives to discuss human rights.[693]
§ 11. Mrs. Bridget PrenticeTo ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on United Kingdom-Indonesia relations. [694]
§ Mr. HanleyWith permission, Madam Speaker. I should like to answer Questions 10 and 11 together.
My right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary last discussed human rights issues with the Indonesian Foreign Minister in New York in September 1996, as I did with him in July this year in Jakarta. We meet the Indonesian ambassador and his staff regularly to discuss a wide range of issues, including human rights.
§ Mr. AingerCan the Minister explain to the House why he continues to believe one word or any assurance given to the Government by the Indonesian regime, which is clearly responsible for the deaths of up to 200,000 East Timorese? Why will he not believe the words of Jose Ramos Horta, the 1996 Nobel peace prize winner, who said in the course of a Liverpool trial in July that British Hawk aircraft fly low over East Timor and attack 644 unprotected peasant people? If the Minister does not believe Mr. Ramos Horta, why does he not believe Bishop Carlos Belo, who said—
§ Madam SpeakerOrder. The hon. Gentleman must not make a speech. We are not on an Adjournment debate. We need brief questions. We are not making the progress that we normally make with Foreign Office questions. Let us get on quickly.
§ Mr. AingerWhy does the Minister not believe the words of Bishop Carlos Belo, who in relation to arms supplies to the Indonesian regime that such supplies were in the interests only of industrialised countries? Why does he not accept—
§ Madam SpeakerOrder. I think that the Minister has got the message.
§ Mr. HanleyWe do not take the assurances of Indonesians alone. We take evidence also from a number of other sources. As for arms to Indonesia, or any defence equipment, under article 51 of the United Nations charter all sovereign states enjoy the right to self-defence. All applications to export defence equipment are examined case by case in the light of established criteria and internationally agreed guidelines.
We do not allow the export of arms and equipment likely to be used for internal repression in Indonesia or East Timor. I discussed these issues with Mr. Ramos Horta when I met him on 24 April. I believe, therefore, that we are taking our responsibilities extremely seriously.
§ Mrs. PrenticeEven if we accept the Minister's guarantees about meetings with the Indonesian Government, how can he convince us that there are regular and rigorous checks on whether that Government are telling the truth? What assurance can he give us that the Government's commitment is genuine and has not abated since the cheque has been banked?
§ Mr. HanleyAs I have said, we use the diplomatic staff at our post in Jakarta to check on actions in a wide-ranging way, throughout their normal working year. Indonesia, after all, is not subject to international sanctions, and the key point when selling arms is human rights. We raise that point directly with the Indonesians and we do not sell them weapons that are likely to be used for internal repression.
§ Mr. FatchettWhat about water cannon?
§ Mr. HanleyIf water cannon is used to try to stop peaceful demonstrators, that is of course totally unacceptable; if it is used to stop rioters, that may be acceptable. It is totally unacceptable to use chemicals or dyes with the water cannon. The only admission that the Indonesians have been made about equipment that they have used concerned armoured vehicles which I believe were supplied by the United Kingdom in the 1960s—I cannot say which Government supplied them—and were used to counter student demonstrations in April; the Indonesians have arrested, tried and sentenced those responsible.
§ Mr. John MarshallWill my right hon. Friend confirm that if we were to ban arms exports to Indonesia, the Indonesians would get their arms from someone else and the only sufferers would be those employed in defence industries in the United Kingdom?
§ Mr. HanleyWhile I am sure that my hon. Friend is right, I can assure him that we would not sell arms to any country merely because it could get them from somebody else. We use very special criteria to ensure that the arms are not used for repressive purposes. We approve the export of equipment on the ground that we do not believe that it is likely to be used for internal repression. We stick carefully to that extremely important principle.
§ Mr. Jacques ArnoldDoes my right hon. Friend nevertheless appreciate that there are severe human rights problems in East Timor, and will he discuss those issues with our Portuguese friends, who have a long-standing insight into that territory and into what is happening there?
§ Mr. HanleyWe regularly discuss East Timor with the Indonesians and they are well aware of our views. As I have said, my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary discussed the matter with the Indonesian Foreign Minister, Mr. Alatas, at their meeting in New York in September. I accept that there have been human rights violations in East Timor, but the EU common position, published in late June, called for a significant improvement in that situation, and we would be delighted if the award of the Nobel peace prize helped in the realisation of a comprehensive settlement that is acceptable to all parties, including the East Timorese.
§ Mrs. ClwydThe Minister will know, because we have discussed the matter, that in September last year—14 months ago—I submitted a detailed report to the National Audit Office on British aid to Indonesia linked with human rights abuses. Can he assure us that his Department is not deliberately blocking the publication of the NAO report for fear of political embarrassment?
§ Mr. HanleyI can give the hon. Lady exactly that assurance. We are not holding up the report, and I believe that the NAO review of aspects of the aid programme to Indonesia will be available soon. I do not know the report's contents, but I hope that the hon. Lady will stick by its findings, because the Government certainly will.
§ Mr. HawkinsDoes my right hon. Friend agree that the Opposition are seeking to destroy the jobs of many people who work for British Aerospace? Before making their case, should not the Opposition first discuss with the leader of the Manufacturing, Science and Finance Union at British Aerospace Warton how much damage he believes their proposals would cause British workers and jobs, instead of flying in the face of the facts and suggesting that aircraft are carrying out actions that they do not have the capacity to carry out?
§ Mr. HanleyYes, we have received assurances from the Indonesian Government that Hawk aircraft will not be used in Indonesia and East Timor, and there is no evidence to suggest that those assurances have not been respected. In fact, we have investigated thoroughly reports 646 that Hawk aircraft may have been used in East Timor but found absolutely no evidence from any source to support them. However, our standard licensing procedures apply to all defence exports. Hawk export licence applications are considered carefully in the light of established criteria—that is not only to protect jobs but to protect lives honourably.
§ Mr. FatchettAs the Minister has been less than fulsome, I take this opportunity on behalf of the House to congratulate Bishop Belo and Jose Ramos Horta on being awarded the Nobel peace prize and on their work on behalf of the people of East Timor, which is certainly appreciated by the Opposition. Is not Indonesia yet another example of the Government saying one thing about human rights but acting differently?
Is the Minister not aware of recent authoritative reports which show that pro-democracy demonstrations in Indonesia this summer were suppressed by the use of electric shock batons and water cannons, all of which were supplied by British companies? Will he explain how such instruments of torture and repression can possibly be used to promote democracy and human rights? Is it not about time that the Government came clean on their record in Indonesia and their support for a regime which stands for the violation of human rights?
§ Mr. HanleyWe certainly recognise the work done by Bishop Belo in defending the rights of the people of East Timor and I congratulate him and Jose Ramos Horta. They meet the Government regularly and I congratulate them most sincerely. As for the hon. Gentleman's comments about certain pieces of equipment being used in Jakarta earlier this year, I should be grateful if he could give me evidence, chapter and verse. Is the Labour party saying that it would break off diplomatic relations with Indonesia?