§ 8. Mr. HarveyTo ask the Secretary of State for Defence what recent advice his Department has given to the Department of Trade and Industry about the licensing of United Kingdom exports of arms to Indonesia. [4316]
§ Mr. ArbuthnotMy Department advises the Department of Trade and Industry on various aspects of export licensing. These would include the legitimate defence requirements of the recipient, the effect on regional stability and the risk of use against United Kingdom forces.
§ Mr. HarveyWhat heroic military exploits on the part of the Indonesian army marked its members out as natural allies of this country? Was it the killing of 200,000 East Timorese since the illegal occupation of their country, or the assassination of Muslim protesters in Jakarta or that of Timorese people in Dili? Why do we keep an office in Indonesia for the Defence Export Services Organisation? Why did we underwrite half a billion pounds' worth of exports to the Indonesian military in 1992–93? Why do we send armaments, aircraft and tanks whose manufacturers describe them as ideal for internal security? What is it about these people that marked them out as our natural allies?
§ Mr. ArbuthnotThe hon. Gentleman has ruined his case. Unfortunately, all export applications are examined very rigorously by this country. The hon. Gentleman ought to welcome positive developments in Indonesia: he ought to welcome, for example, the formation of the National Human Rights Commission there. We have thoroughly investigated every report that Hawk aircraft have been used against East Timor, and we have found that there is no evidence to support those claims. The hon. Gentleman does himself no service whatever.
§ Mr. AtkinsWill my hon. Friend join me in ensuring that his advice to the Department of Trade and Industry is to congratulate companies such as British Aerospace, which is closing substantial deals with Indonesia, Qatar 143 and Australia? That is evidence of the efforts of that great company, which is represented by so many of our hon. Friends, who were working a jolly sight harder for British Aerospace at all levels long before that lot were.
§ Mr. ArbuthnotMy right hon. Friend is right. What was notable as he asked his question was the total silence from Opposition Members. Although they profess to support British industry, in practice the Labour party hates British defence industry exporting any equipment at all.
§ Mrs. ClwydThe Minister is wrong. Hawk aircraft have been spotted in East Timor by Hugh O'Shaughnessy and by people who live there. The trouble is that the Government prefer to believe the Indonesian Government rather than eye-witness accounts. Why is he always telling us that Hawk aircraft are used as trainers in Indonesia when, during a military exercise last week, Hawk aircraft were used to fire rockets? The accounts are that the rockets reduced the target to scorched earth. Where were those aircraft converted for that use—in Britain or in Indonesia?
§ Mr. ArbuthnotI am sorry, but the hon. Lady is wrong. The minister counsellor at the Indonesian embassy has written that the Indonesian Government have never and will never use the Hawks to suppress the East Timorese. We have no evidence to suggest that that is untrue. We do not believe that it is untrue.
As I have said, we welcome the positive developments in Indonesia. The National Commission on Human Rights is also to be welcomed. The hon. Lady should welcome that as well. I regret that she does not. I am pleased that her Front-Bench team is at odds with her on the issue. When we export equipment, we need to be absolutely sure that it is not used for the repression of internal civilian populations; in this case, it certainly is not.
§ Mr. RichardsWhat is my hon. Friend's assessment of the level of international competition for defence contracts with Indonesia?
§ Mr. ArbuthnotIt is high. It is because British industry is so successful in being competitive, in creating good equipment and in offering good prices that we are able to take such a high proportion of the world defence equipment market. That is good news for British jobs, for British influence and for the Ministry of Defence, which is able to reduce the prices that it pays as a result of large cost runs. British industry's success should be welcomed not only by the Conservative party but by the Labour party. I wish it were, but it is not.