§ Dr. John Reid(by private notice) (Motherwell, North)To ask the Minister of State for the Armed Forces if he will make a statement on the plans for the deployment of British forces to Zaire.
§ The Minister of State for the Armed Forces (Mr. Nicholas Soames)The House will recall the statement made last Thursday by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence. At that time, fighting in eastern Zaire was reported to have intensified. There were estimates that hundreds of thousands of refugees were at risk, and that the death toll was likely to escalate rapidly.
In the face of a potential humanitarian tragedy, my right hon. Friend made it plain that the United Kingdom was ready to play its part in the temporary multinational force for which United Nations Security Council resolution 1078 had called. But he also emphasised the absolute necessity to establish clear objectives for any force dispatched to the region, and announced that we had authorised a reconnaissance party led by Brigadier Jonathan Thomson, the chief of joint rapid deployment force operations, to travel to Zaire to establish in greater detail what the situation was on the ground. The House will wish to be aware that the party was vastly assisted by Her Majesty's ambassador to Rwanda, Miss Kay Oliver, and her team, who have done a remarkable job in the past few days and deserve great credit.
The recce party made its report yesterday. It confirmed that the return of refugees from north Kivu to Rwanda was largely complete and that the situation in the area around Goma had therefore eased substantially.
It is possible that last week's decision to mount a multinational force was instrumental in persuading the Hutu militia to flee and the refugees to return home. By contrast, the position in the area to the south of Lake Kivu remains confused and complex. The precise whereabouts and condition of a large number of refugees are unclear. There remains a critical shortage of information on what is happening in the south Kivu region, which makes it extremely difficult for military planners and humanitarian agencies alike to assess what action is needed; although it is clear in any event that humanitarian support will be needed in Rwanda as refugees return to their homes.
The House should know that my right hon. Friend has authorised the deployment of a Canberra photo-reconnaissance aircraft with its attendant support to the area, to assist in establishing a clearer picture. Until we have more detailed information, we shall be in no position to take sensible decisions on how best to help.
In the mean time, we are continuing to plan a range of options with our potential partners in a multinational force. We also continue to keep in close touch with the humanitarian agencies and we are monitoring the situation closely as it develops. My noble Friend the Minister for Overseas Development has announced this afternoon that a further £10 million will be provided to help to meet needs in Rwanda and the great lakes region. That brings our total contribution for Rwanda and its refugees to more than £18 million in 1996.
The option of deploying a multinational force to south Kivu remains open. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State made it clear last week that the Government were ready to take prompt and effective action to help to overcome the crisis. That remains the case.
980 In the light of the changed circumstances, we are urgently assessing the direction of events and consulting our partners further before final decisions are taken. The House will, I know, understand and agree, and will wish to be reassured that we are making absolutely certain that any contribution, whether military, political or in the form of aid, properly meets the needs of the people in the region.
§ Dr. ReidI thank the Minister and welcome the additional £10 million that has been made available. Like the entire House, I welcome the fact that hundreds of thousands of refugees have now reached comparative, albeit temporary, safety.
We recognise the fluidity of the situation. The nature of the deployment of any British troops may have to be subject to revision in the light of the professional evaluation of the reconnaissance party.
We welcome the Government's efforts to enhance our information-gathering capability by sending a Canberra aircraft to assess the situation.
When does the Minister expect to be able to give a detailed response to the findings of the recce party? Does he recognise that hundreds of thousands of refugees are still stranded in eastern Zaire and that it is not clear what the Hutu militias are planning—possibly a regrouping and reinforcement of their positions?
Can the Minister confirm reports that members of the British team sent to eastern Zaire were unable to visit parts of the area that they wished to see because they were barred by the Hutu militia, and that they had to make observations instead from the high ground in Rwanda? Does he accept that there remain formidable problems of logistics and organisation, even for the refugees who have reached comparative safety, and that those are problems for which military skills and logistical operations may be of great assistance?
Although we appreciate that the situation is fluid, I am sure that the House would be grateful if the Minister told us his current thinking about the number of troops to be sent. In that context, what are the implications for Britain of America's announcement that it is to send fewer than 1,000 support troops? What communications has he had with our western allies in assessing the situation?
Finally, will the Minister accept the Opposition's assurance that we remain supportive in principle, should the decision be taken to deploy our troops in the light of the reconnaissance report? We ask, however, for an assurance that any final decision will be subject to a fuller statement from the Minister, so that the House can examine the details of the mission objectives, command structures and any rules of engagement that might be appropriate.
§ Mr. SoamesI am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his remarks and for his support throughout.
The hon. Gentleman asked about the reconnaissance party. I can confirm that members of the reconnaissance party were well received wherever they went and that they were able to make assessments on the ground and see all that they needed to see. They did not have any trouble of the kind that the hon. Gentleman feared. They could see from where they were all that they needed to see. They have made a full and detailed report to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and to Ministers and the chiefs.
981 The hon. Gentleman's point about logistics and the difficulty of delivering aid is well taken. Clearly, if a force of any size were deployed under the present circumstances, one of the principal requirements would be the ability to deliver aid and to resolve the associated logistical problems.
The hon. Gentleman asked about our current thinking on the number of troops. That depends on our assessment of the situation and our absolute requirement to clarify the situation on the ground, but it seems that the problem is not as serious as we originally thought. The House will realise that although the position in the north is considerably eased, there is no such assurance about conditions in the south. We are anxiously seeking information about those refugees.
The hon. Gentleman will realise that the liaison between our western allies and the United States is extremely close and on-going. A team from our permanent joint headquarters will deploy to Stuttgart, to EUCOM, for the planning meeting that starts tomorrow, and I hope that we shall, towards the end of the week, have a clearer idea of the situation on the ground and of the configuration of forces that we shall need. I reassure the House, as my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State did last week, that there will be no question of going without a clear mission, proper command and control and everything else about which the House expressed concern.
§ Mr. Michael Colvin (Romsey and Waterside)Most people will acknowledge that the Ministry of Defence has responded to a very complex and confused situation in eastern Zaire and Rwanda with commendable clarity and resolve, unlike some other countries. It is just as well that our new joint rapid deployment force was operational and not committed elsewhere.
We also applaud the readiness with which 10 African states have come forward to volunteer troops to a combined joint task force. Should not we be giving African countries and, perhaps, countries in other continents, help in setting up planning cells and command structures, so that if such emergencies arise again, as they are bound to do, at least they will be able to help themselves rather than being forced to rely on outside help, no matter how ready other countries are to assist?
§ Mr. SoamesI am grateful to my hon. Friend. I think that the House will agree that Her Majesty's Government responded as one would expect them to in the circumstances of impending potential humanitarian catastrophe, by taking steps to ensure that Britain would be able to make its rightful contribution. It is lucky that the JRDF was not deployed elsewhere. It has also turned out to be an extraordinary stroke of good fortune that it was up and configured. The new permanent joint headquarters has played a notable role in the planning of the operation.
I wholly endorse what my hon. Friend said about African countries and peacekeeping operations. As he knows, Britain has had a number of short-term training teams deployed in Africa over time. They have played a notable role. Indeed, Britain played a great role in the conference on peacekeeping in Africa, in Zimbabwe, last year. I agree that African countries need to be able to play a bigger part in resolving their own difficulties, which would be greatly to their advantage.
§ Sir David Steel (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale)May I, on behalf of my colleagues, give a wholehearted 982 welcome to the Minister's statement? I remind him that two years ago I visited British troops who were in Kigali as part of the UN force, and General Dalliaire, who was in charge of the UN operation—indeed everybody—said that if only the international community had been able to send troops three months earlier, we might have been able to have a police operation, which would have prevented the exodus of refugees into Zaire.
Learning from that experience, will the Minister emphasise the part of his statement where he talked about liaising with humanitarian agencies? Does he also recognise that we may never get a perfect military plan, because if we wait for that, we shall wait for ever? Will he therefore respond to the cries for help if a police operation needs to be mounted?
§ Mr. SoamesThe right hon. Gentleman makes a good point. There is clearly no point sitting around just waiting for things to happen, because there is no such thing as the perfect military plan. There will always be a degree of risk. I accept, as will everyone in the Ministry of Defence, what the right hon. Gentleman said. Timing is extremely important. There are lessons that we learn after each deployment, and the one raised by the right hon. Gentleman is one such.
However, it is plain that it would be unwise to send troops into a situation such as that which appears to be developing in Zaire and elsewhere without a clear exposition of exactly where the problem is. A week ago, we were looking at sending troops on a basis that it now seems will not be required. It is important that we assess properly the scale and shape of what we need, and then we shall be ready to go at short notice. Indeed, I can confirm to the House that all the troops placed on a shorter notice to move by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State earlier in the week remain on that short notice.
§ Mr. James Couchman (Gillingham)This time last week, a delegation from the House was at the United Nations and we were able to watch the informal meeting of permanent representatives of the Security Council discuss the matter in some depth. I pay tribute to our permanent representative, Sir John Weston, who played a leading part in the resolution passed by the United Nations Security Council last week.
Everyone is tremendously relieved that it has not proved necessary to send the sort of force envisaged in the resolution and that many refugees have now returned to Rwanda. Does my hon. Friend foresee the possibility of sending troops to Rwanda—obviously with that country's blessing—to assist with humanitarian and reconstruction work? I think particularly of the Royal Engineers which, as my hon. Friend knows, has a major establishment in my constituency.
§ Mr. SoamesI am grateful to my hon. Friend and I am glad that he was at the United Nations when those matters were discussed. He will know—as should the House—of the formidable job done by Sir John Weston and his team on our behalf at the United Nations. My hon. Friend is right: if it came to providing purely humanitarian assistance in Rwanda, the Royal Engineers might play an important role, as could the logisticians. I pay tribute to the Royal Engineers, whose home base is in my hon. 983 Friend's constituency. They are deployed throughout the world and are extremely overworked. I do not know where we would be without them.
§ Mr. Tam Dalyell (Linlithgow)The Canadians offered to take the lead in the mission, but do they remain as enthusiastic as they were? What has President Bizimungu of Rwanda said to the British Government or to Ambassador Kay Oliver? Would he welcome such forces?
§ Mr. SoamesI am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the interest that he has shown in the matter and for the courteous way in which he has kept in touch with my office. He is right to ask whether troops would be welcome, as plainly we will not invade the place. We are talking about a humanitarian operation and it is important that British and multinational troops are welcomed wherever they go, with a view to carrying out the mission for which they were sent.
The hon. Gentleman knows that both the Americans and the Canadians are now reassessing—as we are—the need for the kind of deployment that we considered before the vast exodus took place from the north. That plainly changes the situation. I know that the hon. Gentleman would not want us to move without careful thought and assessment of the situation on the ground, so that we go in, first, welcome and, secondly, able and configured to do the job required to save lives. We must not get caught in some awful mix-up.
§ Mr. John Townend (Bridlington)I welcome my hon. Friend's undertaking that we will not deploy troops without the approval of the Governments concerned. That is a great relief.
Does my hon. Friend accept that the Secretary of State's statement to the House last week was based on incorrect information? Clearly, 20,000 refugees were not dying every day or every week—many of them would have been left in the camps if that were the case. Will he assure the House that in future he will take less notice of scare stories circulated in the media, by aid agencies or by others with a vested interest?
§ Mr. SoamesMy hon. Friend should recall the exact remarks of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, who said that refugees in the northern part of the country could be the victims of a potential humanitarian catastrophe. Her Majesty's Government received that information not just from the non-governmental organisations but from the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees. The information was substantiated by our sources and it was clear then that the British Government and other Governments of the civilised world should prepare to take part in a relief operation. It would be a shameful thing for Britain, among all countries, even to contemplate standing apart if something terrible happened.
§ Mr. John Home Robertson (East Lothian)Unlike the hon. Member for Bridlington (Mr. Townend), I welcome wholeheartedly the fact that the British Government are willing to take part in another United Nations-sponsored humanitarian operation. I fear that such a scenario will occur time and again in this 984 increasingly unstable world. Is the Minister aware that our scaled-down armed forces are already seriously overstretched, with commitments in Northern Ireland, Bosnia and elsewhere? Is it not the responsibility of the Government and of the House to give our armed forces sufficient resources and manpower for the task that we want them to undertake?
§ Mr. SoamesI am probably more aware than anyone in the House of how busy our armed forces are, and I agree with the hon. Gentleman's sentiment, although it was rather intemperately expressed. I know that his heart is in the right place: he is a keen member of the armed forces parliamentary scheme. I assure him that whatever such an operation may have required, and however busy our forces may have been—they are busy at present—that would not have prevented us from conducting the proposed operation.
An overstretch undoubtedly exists, but it was not a factor in this operation. The joint rapid deployment force was created to hold troops available for such operations, so that they could go rapidly wherever we need them, either to defend our interests or to help other people.
§ Mr. Richard Alexander (Newark)The House will welcome the increased aid for refugee women and children. What assurance can my hon. Friend give us that that aid will not be used to feed warring fighters, whose side may not be doing so well? Is there not evidence from the pictures that we have seen that many of the young men among the refugees are former fighters who, refreshed by overseas aid, can carry on fighting at the next opportunity?
§ Mr. SoamesIt is difficult to discriminate in the television pictures between one person and another as they trudge from point A to point B. I am sure that some of the guilty are among those people. That does not alter the fact that we are beholden to help where we can. I hope that the House will agree that we should add this new money to the already substantial help that we are giving to Rwanda. Of the new £10 million commitment, £1.25 million has already been allocated to the World Food Programme. the International Committee of the Red Cross and the British non-governmental organisations to address immediate needs in eastern Zaire and Rwanda.
However critical people are of overseas aid—there are legitimate arguments for and against—the House should recognise that the Overseas Development Administration in this country has a golden and shining record. Our aid is outstandingly well spent in every respect.
§ Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones (Ynys Môn)I am sure that the Minister spoke for the whole House when he said that our first priority was to deliver humanitarian aid to refugees, to help them to return home. He referred to the difficulties of sending troops to Zaire. I am sure that he will agree that the humanitarian aid agencies are heroically delivering services under difficult circumstances. Until the Minister is able to make a statement on the deployment of troops, what practical assistance can the Government offer those agencies, to ensure that the aid gets through?
§ Mr. SoamesI am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for those words, and I join him in his warm tribute to the humanitarian agencies. They do so much all over the 985 world, not just in times of crisis when they are on everyone's television screens, but every day when they help people in desperate circumstances.
Until we have people on the ground, the Government are plainly not able to assist in dispatching aid. I am sure that aid agencies will warmly welcome the announcement that I made this afternoon and which my noble Friend Baroness Chalker, the Minister for Overseas Development, made on additional aid to humanitarian agencies.
§ Mr. John Wilkinson (Ruislip-Northwood)I thank my hon. Friend for his judicious and reassuring statement. He has forgotten none of the lessons of his formative military years, that time spent in reconnaissance is never wasted. Can he reassure the House that there will be no diminution of the Royal Air Force's aerial reconnaissance capability, which is so important in this emergency, because it enables us to assess need over huge areas of ground and extremities of range? On the logistics of the emergency, can he tell us whether the Government comprehend the RAF's requirement for a heavy lift capability, such as the C17 aircraft, which can carry huge amounts of kit at rapid speeds to any emergency hot spot around the globe?
§ Mr. SoamesI am grateful to my hon. Friend for what he said. He is right about the age-old adage in volume 1 of "Staff Duties in the Field", which tells us that time spent on reconnaissance is never wasted: that is critical.
I can confirm that deployment of the Canberra PR9 will not affect the Royal Air Force's reconnaissance efforts elsewhere. As for heavy lift, my hon. Friend is right in saying that it remains an important question for the joint rapid deployment force. I shall draw what he has said to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, and I hope that he will continue to raise that serious and important issue.
§ Mr. Mike Gapes (Ilford, South)The Minister referred to the situation around the south of Lake Kivu. Will he confirm that there are refugees there who have come from Burundi? Will he also confirm that the crisis has led to the displacement of many thousands of Zaireans? Although it is welcome that hundreds of thousands of people have returned to Rwanda, the geography and the complexities are such that there is still a crisis affecting hundreds of thousands of people. The problem has not been solved yet.
Will the Minister also confirm that some of the £10 million of aid that has been announced will be used to assist long-term reconstruction in Rwanda, allowing the possibility of stability, democracy and respect for human rights?
§ Mr. SoamesI entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman that the crisis is not over yet. He is right to point out that, around Lake Kivu and in the south, there remain possibly a vast number of refugees of whose exact whereabouts and condition we know little. We need to establish those facts. The hon. Gentleman is also right in saying that there are people from Burundi there: that complicates the matter further.
As for the £10 million of aid money, and the hon. Gentleman's desire for it to be deployed in reconstruction, that is a matter for my noble Friend the Minister for Overseas Development. I agree, however, that 986 reconstruction, and stability for the people of Rwanda, will be a great prize for those people, and—we hope—will prevent further trouble of this kind.
§ Mr. Bill Walker (North Tayside)My hon. Friend and his colleagues at the Ministry of Defence are to be congratulated on the way in which they have handled the problem. It is true that the ability of fixed-wing aircraft to be deployed for intelligence gathering and reconnaissance is a vital part of any operation; it is also true that command and control is a vital part of any operation. Many will advise my hon. Friend to encourage African nations to become much more involved, and we welcome their involvement, but what we must never do is commit United Kingdom troops when we are not satisfied that command and control has the experience and expertise to do the job properly.
§ Mr. SoamesMy hon. Friend is right about the importance of photo-reconnaissance. The Canberra PR9 in particular has proved extraordinarily valuable, and has served us for many years. I also endorse his views on command and control. Any follow-on force along the lines that we originally considered would, we hope, largely consist of a number of African nations that have themselves volunteered to take part. We would never involve our own forces—even if we take the point made by the right hon. Member for Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale (Sir D. Steel) about waiting until it is too late—unless we were absolutely satisfied about command and control.
§ Mr. Robert N. Wareing (Liverpool, West Derby)I fully support what is now being proposed in regard to humanitarian assistance, but is there not a moral in all this for future defence and foreign policy? On 15 January, in two replies to questions from me, the Minister said that, between 1991 and 1995, this country had provided military assistance for the armies of Rwanda and Zaire. Does that not demonstrate that we should be rather more constrained in choosing the regimes that we provide with training and, in particular, arms?
§ Mr. SoamesI think that the hon. Gentleman is confused, in his penetrating questioning of me, as between United Nations assistance in Rwanda and assistance elsewhere, but on the more general point, clearly, I agree with him. We are extremely careful and cautious about where we provide military training. British military training teams in South Africa and elsewhere have done a great deal. The House will wish to pay tribute to the work, for example, of the British military training team in South Africa. The team has done so much to help to assimilate all parts of the South African army. On the more general point outside Zaire and Rwanda, I accept what the hon. Gentleman says. We need to be extraordinarily cautious, and we are.
§ Mr. Jacques Arnold (Gravesham)Bearing in mind the fact that British forces had no operational experience in any of those three countries during colonial times or 987 since, can we nevertheless be wary of taking advice from the French, who have such experience, but who have such a colourful and partisan record in those countries?
§ Mr. SoamesI know that my hon. Friend is seeking to be helpful, but British forces have been engaged in both Rwanda and Angola within the past 18 months.
§ Mr. D. N. Campbell-Savours (Workington)What is the Government's estimate of the total number of Hutu refugees still in Zaire? What are the Government going to do about a British arms trading company that supplied arms to the region, which was clearly a major component in the strife that is taking place and which may have been in default of UK legislation?
§ Mr. SoamesThe hon. Gentleman asked me first about the number of Hutus remaining. The answer is that we simply do not know. That is one of the reasons why we need to have further and better particulars before we become more heavily engaged.
As to the second point, as the hon. Gentleman knows, the Government have been extremely concerned to learn of allegations that UK companies might have been involved in the supply of arms to Rwandan extremists. The Government have well-established and strict procedures to ensure that any UK arms exports are both responsible and legitimate. There is no allegation that the arms have been exported from the UK, but Her Majesty's Customs and Excise is urgently investigating the matter to establish whether any offence has been committed under UK law.
§ Mr. Hugh Bayley (York)May I return to the point that I put to the Secretary of State for Defence last Thursday, which follows on from the question that the Minister has just answered? Does he agree that the long-term peace and stability of a region depends on getting arms out of the hands of militias, and that, both in the UK and internationally, further work is needed to identify the sources of those arms and to ensure that those sources are stopped off?
§ Mr. SoamesAs the hon. Gentleman knows, the reasons for the instability in the region go much more widely than the narrow point that he raised. Plainly, as I said, we have strict rules on arms sales. As to the general and wider point of arms sales to irresponsible countries, plainly, everyone would share the hon. Gentleman's view that that is undesirable. He needs to consider more points than just arms sales as the reason for instability between Zaire and Rwanda.