HC Deb 13 November 1996 vol 285 cc349-51
13. Mr. Corbyn

To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Employment how many children of primary schools are currently in classes of more than 30 pupils. [2083]

Mr. Robin Squire

In January 1996, 32 per cent. of primary pupils were in single-teacher classes of more than 30. About a third of those pupils were in classes supported by at least one member of non-teaching staff.

Mr. Corbyn

Does the Minister agree that those figures are outrageous and disgraceful, and that standards in our primary schools have got worse and worse in the past 17 years with more and more pupils in large classes in which it is obviously difficult to give them the proper support and tuition that they need? Will he tell us about his plans for the future, because all the estimates I have seen suggest that more and more children will be in classes of more than 30 pupils, and will therefore get a worse and worse education? Will he tell us what plans he has to ensure a proper supply of properly qualified and trained teachers? What are his plans for proper expenditure to ensure that school buildings are of a sufficient standard to accommodate more, smaller classes, which will ensure that all our children get the standard of education that they deserve and need?

Mr. Squire

How interesting. First of all, a small fact: the percentage of pupils who are in classes of more than 30 is now smaller than it was when we came to power in 1979. I invite the hon. Gentleman to find, at some other stage, the adjective to describe our predecessors, the Labour Government. It is rather more important than that, because the hon. Gentleman comes from the borough of Islington and, indeed, represents it. In Islington, class sizes are below the national average, yet after 11 years of compulsory education, Islington's pupils have the worst record of attainment at GCSE level of any authority in the country. The Labour party has run that authority for the past 25 years. It is down to local education authorities to decide how the money is spent and what standards are maintained. Islington may be the borough of the chattering classes; unfortunately, it is also the borough of failing classes.

Sir Alan Haselhurst

Although I acknowledge that smaller class sizes must be better than larger class sizes, is not what really matters the amount of attention that each child gets from the teacher and support staff in the classroom, and the quality of the teaching?

Mr. Squire

My hon. Friend—who is very experienced in these matters—is absolutely right. If there were any doubt about that fact even among Opposition Members, the events of the past year should have disabused them of their belief, to which they adhere fanatically, that class size is all. The pupil-teacher ratio at Hackney Downs was eight to one, and the ratio at the Ridings school was 15 to one. Reports from the three inner-London education authorities earlier this year showed that four out of 10 of their 11-year-olds were two or more years behind the reading age for an 11-year-old. That is disgraceful, but it is not due to class sizes.

Mr. Bayley

If the Minister genuinely agrees with the hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Sir A. Haselhurst) that smaller classes provide a better education than bigger classes, will the Government match the Labour party's commitment to cut class sizes for five, six and seven-year-olds to a maximum of 30?

Mr. Squire

For a start, the Labour party has not even begun to find the money—which may be as much as £250 million—to meet that pledge. No one is saying that class size is not important. [HON. MEMBERS: "You are."] No. The Labour party, however, says that it is the single most important issue, which is manifestly untrue. This year and next year, there will undoubtedly be parents in the hon. Gentleman's constituency who will have a choice about which school to send their children to. They will sometimes choose the school that has larger classes and is more popular, and reject the school—which may even be closer—with smaller classes. All the evidence suggests that the belief that the issue is all about class size is simply wrong.