HC Deb 20 May 1996 vol 278 cc41-2
Mr. Murphy

I beg to move amendment No. 3, in page 17, line 34, leave out 'from time to time' and insert 'at least every five years'. The amendment refers to the parliamentary control of numbers and reports. Throughout the passage of the Bill, there has been considerable reference to the need for the House and the other place to have the opportunity from time to time to debate the number of men and women in our reserve forces. Again, the amendment is a probing one. However, the period suggested in the amendment— that reports should come to the House every five years— has not been simply plucked out of thin air.

The Minister has spent the past few months as a leading member of the Select Committee on the Armed Forces Bill, so he is aware that that legislation comes before the House every five years. The amendment refers to the same period. What happens, for example, if the number of reservists falls below the number that is healthy for the proper running of the reserve forces in this country? Do we have to wait an indeterminate length of time before the Minister talks to us in the House about the position? From time to time, and every five years as of right, the House should have the opportunity to discuss not only the number of reservists in all three armed forces, but any problems which might arise in those forces.

The second point of the amendment is this. What method of control will the House of Commons have, and what mechanism does the clause envisage, in relation to, for example, over-staffing, as much as to under-staffing? How does the Minister envisage the House debating the issue? It is not made clear in the Bill and we did not have the opportunity to discuss it in Committee. We therefore look forward to the Minister's comments on this important matter.

Mr. Soames

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising this important point. We should start with the basic premise that Parliament will be interested in call-out. The Bill therefore rightly requires the use of the call-out powers to be reported.

The principal call-out powers, in clauses 52, 54 and 56, are activated by the making of an order, which is to be reported forthwith to each House of Parliament". The arrangements for high-readiness reserves in part IV of the Bill are different. They might be required in small numbers at short notice. They might also be required in circumstances in which a formal declaration of call-out might be an unhelpful political signal.

A further consideration is that each individual will voluntarily have entered into a special agreement and his or her employer will have consented to that. They will therefore not need the safeguard that immediate reporting to Parliament provides. The Bill therefore provides for reporting to be at the discretion of the Secretary of State. It specifically mentions, in clause 36(4), that reports may be made before or after the use of the power.

I have listened with great interest to the hon. Gentleman's points. I remain unconvinced that the amendment is appropriate, but I acknowledge that the hon. Gentleman is right to draw attention to something which is perhaps not made so plain as we would like. However, I cannot conceive and I am sure that the hon. Gentleman cannot conceive of any circumstance in which a report would not be made to the House of Commons.

The pattern of reports and what they contain may, of course, vary. For example, the Secretary of State might report the commencement of an operation and the associated call-out of reservists under part IV, and then not make a further report until there is some change to that report. There may be successive call-outs of individuals to provide continuous manning of a small number of posts, as sometimes happens during major call-outs now. Such events would not be of sufficient interest to be reported, although at present all those are placed in the Library. However, if the operation was prolonged, there might be occasional written reports on the call-out of further reservists. At the conclusion of the operation, when all reservists had been released from service, the Secretary of State would probably wish to report that fact and record any successes or lessons learnt. It would, of course, always be open for hon. Members or Peers to request information on any aspect of the use made of the powers by tabling questions.

In those circumstances, the Bill as drafted is satisfactory. It allows for the level and detail of reports to be tailored to the needs of the situation prevailing at the time. I hope that—as in the spirit of the debates on previous amendments—in the light of my assurances as to the pattern of reports that we envisage, the hon. Gentleman will feel able to seek leave to withdraw his amendment.

Mr. Murphy

The Minister's hopes will be realised now that we have those reassurances. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

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