Beef (Hansard, 1 May 1996)

§ 1. Mr. Kirkwood
To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland when he expects to meet the Scottish National Farmers Union to discuss problems in the beef industry associated with bovine spongiform encephalopathy; and if he will make a statement. [26048]

§ 4. Mr. Jacques Arnold
To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what discussions he has had with representatives of the beef industry in Scotland. [26052]

§ 11. Sir Hector Monro
To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what recent discussions he has had with the National Farmers Union of Scotland concerning beef production; and if he will make a statement. [26061]

§ The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Michael Forsyth)
Scottish Office Ministers have regularly met representatives of the Scottish National Farmers Union over recent weeks and I have established an industry group which regularly meets my senior officials.

§ Mr. Kirkwood
Will the Secretary of State acknowledge that urgent practical steps need to be taken now so that consumer confidence can be won back and the European ban lifted? Will he therefore consider the possibility of ensuring that the cattle disposal scheme is fully available throughout Scotland by the end of this week, and will he use his influence with the intervention board to try to get more beef out of the system north of the border? In addition, will he consider the possibility of relaxing some of the rules of the special beef premium scheme so that more cattle will be eligible for the subsidy and of waiving the scaling back of the financial limit on the scheme for 1995? If he does not do so, in six months there will be no beef industry to save.

§ Mr. Forsyth
I agree with the hon. Gentleman about the importance of lifting the beef ban, and I hope that he and his colleagues, who have been such enthusiasts for passing more power to Brussels, will learn from this experience.
With regard to the proposals that he has put forward, I will ensure that they are drawn to the attention of my right hon. and learned Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. My right hon. and learned Friend and I have been determined to take measures as speedily as possible, and we have been guided in our conduct of policy by the splendid way in which the farming unions have spoken for the industry as a united industry and have worked with others who have an interest in the matter.

§ Mr. Arnold
Is my right hon. Friend aware that farmers throughout the country bitterly resent the proposal by bureaucrats in Brussels for a holocaust of British cows in response to the panic of the German housewife? Is it not an irony and a tragedy that the panic about British beef 1128 was started in this very House by the irresponsible scaremongering of the hon. Member for Peckham (Ms Harman)?

§ Mr. Forsyth
I agree with my hon. Friend about the considerable concern throughout the United Kingdom about the impact of this unjustified ban on British beef. I also agree with what he says about the hon. Member for Peckham (Ms Harman), but I would exempt from that criticism the hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. Robertson) and his colleagues, who were rather more restrained in their response and did not, in my view, contribute to some of the hysterical coverage which came as a result of the hon. Member for Peckham trying to make political capital. I hope that that will not embarrass the hon. Member for Hamilton.

§ Sir Hector Monro
Will my right hon. Friend accept that everyone appreciates very much the work that he and Lord Lindsay have done to resolve this problem? Will he answer two questions? First, as the hon. Member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire (Mr. Kirkwood) asked, will he implement the disposal scheme as quickly as possible, particularly in relation to slow-maturing cattle? Secondly, will he say something about exporters of beef, who are in desperate trouble along with the farmers?

§ Mr. Forsyth
The 30-month scheme will be in operation tomorrow, and steps are being taken to get information out to producers so that they are aware of the system. On exports, my right hon. Friend is absolutely right to point out their crucial importance to Scotland's beef industry. We produce very high-quality beef products, and we have worked for years to develop those export markets. The position is similar in Northern Ireland. It is very disappointing to see the stress that is being placed on those sections of the industry that have done so much for British interests in the past. I am currently considering, with my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, what measures we can find to help those who are dependent on the export trade, and how to take account of the specific circumstances of exporters.

§ Mr. Dalyell
Does the Secretary of State regret in any way his statement at Inverness that the scientific committees in the European Union were under political direction?

§ Mr. Forsyth
I neither regret it nor retract it. The fact is that it is there for all to see. Our scientific advice states that there is no justification whatever for the ban on British beef, and the World Health Organisation has taken the same view. It is quite sad to see the way in which people who should be free to take a professional view are at variance with the view of every major global authority. In my view, that is because they are acting under political direction from member states, which have no justification for keeping British beef out of their markets other than their own commercial interests.

§ Mr. Hood
Having visited Luxembourg this week, met judges in the Court of Justice and been told that no complaints have so far been lodged with the Court of Justice by the National Farmers Union, the Government or, indeed, any exporter against the ban on beef, can the 1129 Secretary of State tell us when the Government intend to put their complaint to the Court of Justice, as they have previously told the House that they would?

§ Mr. Forsyth
My right hon. and learned Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food will make a statement to the House later today. As Opposition Members would expect, the Government will be as good as our word, and we shall pursue our legal action very swiftly.

§ Mr. Bill Walker
My right hon. Friend will be aware that every sector of the beef industry has been affected. Can he confirm that when the culling process is in operation, no one sector will have an advantage—for example, the abattoirs will not have an advantage over the auction marts—so that the pricing structures that have been arranged to compensate will take care of that matter?

§ Mr. Forsyth
I am not sure that I can answer my hon. Friend's question in precisely the terms that he would like. I can tell him that no one will gain any advantage from this catastrophe, which has blighted our industry. The blame for the difficulties that our farmers and meat industry currently face rests four square with Brussels. The sooner Brussels lifts the ban, the sooner those people will be able to go about their legitimate business—as they ought to be able to do under the terms of the single market.

§ Mr. Wallace
When the Minister of Agriculture made a statement in the House on 16 April, he said that the Government were considering ways in which there might be some exemption from the 30-month slaughter for specialist herds which take longer than 30 months to mature. That statement was welcomed on both sides of the House. When some colleagues and I visited the Commission in Brussels last week, we found that it was responsive to such a measure and thought that it might be one step towards lifting the export ban; yet it had received no proposals from the British Government. Can the Secretary of State tell us when the Government will present such proposals?

§ Mr. Forsyth
The hon. Gentleman is mistaken to suggest that the British Government have not put proposals to the Commission for the lifting of the ban. The hon. Gentleman heard what my right hon. and learned Friend the Minister of Agriculture said in his statement to the House. Of course we wish to see exemptions from the 30-month rule in respect of slow maturing cattle such as Galloways and Highland cattle, and that is a matter that we continue to pursue. The hon. Gentleman must not lose sight of the fact that the ban on British beef of whatever kind is not justified. That remains our position and we shall continue to argue that case while also arguing for the widening of the exemptions to which my right hon. and learned Friend the Minister committed himself in the House.

§ Mr. Neil Hamilton
The German Chancellor has proposed a final solution to the BSE problem which involves the unnecessary slaughter of a large part of the British national herd and he has been warmly supported by many of our European competitors. As the right hon. Member for Sedgefield (Mr. Blair) has said on many 1130 occasions that he would not wish to be isolated in Europe, does not the logic of his position mean that he would have to support the German Government rather than the interests of the British people?

§ Mr. Forsyth
I agree with my hon. Friend to the extent that Opposition Members who are so keen to give more power to the Community will find it extremely difficult to explain in their constituencies how their policy is consistent with standing up for British interests. There has never been an occasion on which British interests have been more threatened. It is important that the ban is lifted.
On the point about the public statements that have been made by leading figures in Europe, I agree with my hon. Friend that it is difficult to understand how people can say that they eat British beef and believe that it is safe and yet continue to go along with a proposal to exclude it from the Community. I do not often agree with the Daily Record, but it is absolutely right to bring that message home to the people of Scotland. I understand that it has approached a number of leading figures in Europe, all of whom have taken the same view on British beef. It is high time we saw action which reflects their view and which allows our farmers and producers to go about their daily business.

§ Mr. Salmond
Does the Secretary of State agree that the best way to help the exporters of Scotland and Northern Ireland is to get their beef back on to the European market? With that in mind, has the Secretary of State read early-day motion 773, tabled by the hon. Member for East Antrim (Mr. Beggs) and now signed by 79 hon. Members on a cross-party basis, which argues that the way to go forward is to get the quality-assured, naturally fed beef from Scotland, Northern Ireland and elsewhere back on to European markets?
Given the indications of support for that approach from European farming ministers and the fact that the motion has been signed by the hon. Members for Ayr (Mr. Gallie) and for Eastwood (Mr. Stewart), will the Secretary of State retract his dismissal of that attitude, start arguing the case for Scottish beef and stop putting his unionist politics before the livelihoods of my constituents?

§ Mr. Forsyth
I will continue to argue the case on behalf of the Scottish industry and to take advice from that industry. The Scottish industry's advice is clearly that we should argue for the ban to be lifted and that we should not seek to divide the industry. If those involved in the Scottish farming industry—they are the people whose livelihoods and work are on the line—change their position, we will take account of that. The hon. Gentleman will have to do more to satisfy the people of Scotland than try to play politics with this issue. I am sure that they will take note of the fact that, at a time when our industry is being savaged by this ban, he thought it appropriate to put a European star on his party's logo.

§ Mr. Jessel
Does not the consumption of British beef—Aberdeen Angus beef—by Chancellor Kohl at No. 10 Downing street make absolute nonsense of the European Union's ban on British beef, which it pretends is being imposed for health reasons?

§ Mr. Forsyth
I agree with my hon. Friend: seeing is believing. The President of the Commission, Chancellor Kohl and the Commission have indicated by their actions that they believe that British beef is safe. We now want to see the Commission and the Community act accordingly so that our people can get the benefit of what we were promised when we joined the European Union—access to a single market.

§ Mr. George Robertson
The Opposition accept that there should be a lifting of the European ban on British beef as soon as possible. We agree with that position as strongly as the Secretary of State does. However, does he recognise that, if the Conservative party continues to treat this issue as part of the battleground of European politics which is tearing that party apart, it will hinder our chances of persuading our European partners of the strength of our case?
The crisis did not start in Brussels. It started as a result of an announcement by the Government on the link between bovine spongiform encephalopathy and Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease. Public reassurance will return only when there is an agreement on the effectiveness of actions to eliminate BSE from our cattle. How can people be reassured on this issue when the arrangement to dispose of the carcases of cattle more than 30 months old has become a shambles all over Britain this week?
The Opposition have taken a constructive attitude because a huge Scottish industry is at stake and thousands of jobs are in peril. Practical steps have to be taken to reassure the public across Europe. If those practical steps are taken, we will support them. At the end of the day, the Government must govern and they will be judged.

§ Mr. Forsyth
The hon. Gentleman took a long time to say that action must be taken, but he did not put forward a single proposal. That is typical of what we have come to expect from the Labour party. The hon Gentleman believes that the Labour party's approach on Europe is in Britain's interest. I point out to him that the beef ban has been imposed by qualified majority voting-and the Labour party wishes to see more qualified majority voting in Europe.

Several hon. Members
rose—

§ Mr. Kirkwood
On a point of order, Madam Speaker. In view of the totally unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's answer, I give notice to the House that I will seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

§ Madam Speaker
Order. In that case, I am not able to call Mr. Gallie and I must close the question.