§ 7. Mr. MacShaneTo ask the Secretary of State for Wales what recent discussions he has had with the European Commission on the application of the principle of subsidiarity in Wales. [19379]
§ Mr. MacShaneI would like to say that I thank the Secretary of State for his answer, but I am constantly amazed as to why he, as a Yorkshireman from Rotherham, whose parents are valued constituents of mine, is in his particular job. Looking at the talents of the Tory Members representing Wales, however, one can now understand that. If the right hon. Gentleman has visited Europe, he will be aware that every successful European country, and the United States, has a system of government according to the subsidiarity principle, which is much closer to the people who are governed. If it is good enough for America and for other successful economies, why is the Secretary of State—as, of all people, a Yorkshireman, who is so proud of his county—opposed to it for Wales?
§ Mr. HagueI welcome the hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr. MacShane) to Welsh Questions, and I hope that one day his interest in Welsh matters will be as great as mine. However, he has a long way to go before that can possibly happen. He should know, as an hon. Member with great familiarity with the continent of Europe, that it is for member states to decide at what level power should be exercised internally and to decide on their national political arrangements, as was agreed at the conclusion at the Birmingham Council of Ministers. It comes particularly strange from a Labour Member to lecture us on subsidiarity when the Labour party favours giving more power to the institutions of the European Community and reducing this country's freedom of action in Europe by signing things such as the social chapter.
§ Mr. GarnierDoes my right hon. Friend agree that the social chapter, which he has just mentioned, is the very matter that exercises people in south Wales so greatly? Surely the imposition of the social chapter, so much 9 beloved by the hon. Member for Rotherham—and Geneva—(Mr. MacShane) is precisely what will destroy jobs in south Wales.
§ Mr. HagueMy hon. and learned Friend is quite right: we have seen a considerable flow of investment into south Wales, and into other parts of Wales, in recent months and recent years. Those jobs would not be coming to Wales or to the United Kingdom if we were to impose additional rules, regulations and burdens on businesses in this country.
§ Mr. MorganDoes the Secretary of State agree that subsidiarity is not just about keeping powers away from Brussels, but means passing power across to the people? With his £7 billion budget, he is doing very nicely under the present system. As the organiser last weekend of the first Tory party conference to be held in a telephone kiosk, the one thing that he can always be sure of in British politics is that the people of Wales will reject the Tories.
§ Mr. HagueThe hon. Member knows—because he was listening to me talk about it on Thursday night—that my approach is to strengthen, over time, the powers and the role of local government in Wales. That will be a great deal more useful than setting up an additional tier of government, with all the unnecessary expense that that involves.