HC Deb 14 March 1996 vol 273 cc1092-3
4. Mr. Loyden

To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will make a statement on LEK Partnership's conclusions in respect of HMP Doncaster and HMP Buckley Hall and their public comparator group. [18985]

The Minister of State, Home Office (Miss Ann Widdecombe)

The study by LEK evaluated the costs of private sector prisons with the most nearly comparable public sector prisons on 1993–94 data. The results showed that the cost per place was 21 per cent. lower for Doncaster and 26 per cent. lower for Buckley Hall than for comparable public sector prisons. The Prison Service has commissioned Coopers and Lybrand to update the study using 1994–95 data. I expect to have the findings by the end of this month.

Mr. Loyden

Does the Minister acknowledge, on the evidence that has been provided by her Department, that private prison costs—per year, per prisoner—are £200 more than costs for Prison Service accommodation? When will she realise that she should scrap the privatisation of prisons and return to the use of state prisons?

Miss Widdecombe

Let me try to help the hon. Gentleman out of his confusion. He is quite wrong in the interpretation that he has given to the House. The costs that he quotes for public sector prisons do not take account of significant costs that the Prison Service meets centrally, such as clothing, equipment, materials, uniforms and training. Furthermore, those figures, which were based on 1994–95 data, do not take account of the high start-up costs in the private sector.

Mr. John Marshall

Does my hon. Friend agree that it is very strange that when private prisons, on a like-for-like basis, are cheaper and private escort agencies are very much cheaper than the service that is provided by the state, the Labour party still wants to have everything done by the state rather than by the private sector? May we have an assurance that the new prisons referred to by my right hon. and learned Friend a few weeks ago will be provided by the private sector and not by the state sector?

Miss Widdecombe

I can indeed confirm that the prisons that my right hon. and learned Friend announced will be financed through the private finance initiative. My hon. Friend is right to say that it is extraordinary that, when all the advantages lie with the private sector, the Opposition still say on ideological grounds that privatisation is not working. Privatisation was found to work by many studies and was recommended by General Learmont when he conducted his studies. People who have been to Blakenhurst, including Lord Longford, have praised that prison. There is uniform recognition that such prisons have added to the richness of prison life and are doing a good job at a decent cost—

Mr. Straw

Regimes.

Miss Widdecombe

Yes, regimes are part of the richness of prison life. The shadow Home Secretary clearly thinks it is funny when we talk about constructive activity. He thinks that education and work for prisoners is funny. That shows how serious the Opposition are about anything at all.

Ms Lynne

Is the Minister aware that there has been a catalogue of errors and blunders at Buckley Hall prison in Rochdale? It seems to have a far worse record than other category C prisons. For example, 10 prisoners have not returned from authorised leave, and one ex-inmate described it as a time-bomb ticking away. Will the Minister instigate a full inquiry into the running of Buckley Hall by Group 4?

Miss Widdecombe

Buckley Hall performs well in a number of spheres and should be praised for that, but the hon. Lady is right to draw attention to particular concerns that have been expressed, and that the Prison Service is now investigating.

Mr. George Howarth

I shall take this slowly, so that we all understand. Will the Minister confirm that she has argued, on previous occasions and again today, that the 13.3 per cent. cuts proposed in the Prison Service over the next three years can be made from savings resulting from privatisation? Indeed, the Home Secretary has argued the same case. Will the Minister now admit that the truth, which has been confirmed in parliamentary answers from her Department via the Prison Service, is that, when like is compared with like, it costs £200 a year more to keep a prisoner in a privatised prison? Will she admit that what she said previously and her earlier answer today are wrong, and will she now tell the House how she is going to make 13.3 per cent. cuts over the next three years when all the evidence is that privatised prisons are a dearer option?

Miss Widdecombe

First, we have never said that all those savings will come from the private sector alone. We expect efficiency savings to be made across the Prison Service as a whole. Secondly, the hon. Gentleman spoke very slowly, but I think that he was waiting for his own understanding to catch up with him. I made it abundantly clear in my answer to the hon. Member for Liverpool, Garston (Mr. Loyden) that the particular figures that he quoted were not strictly comparable precisely because there are costs taken into account in one which are not taken into account in the other.