Welsh Assembly (Hansard, 15 July 1996)

§ 1. Mr. Robathan
To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received about a referendum on a Welsh Assembly. [35545]

§ The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. William Hague)
Since 1 January, I have received three written representations in favour of a referendum on a Welsh Assembly.

§ Mr. Robathan
Does my right hon. Friend agree that the difficulties with a pre-legislation referendum are the number of questions it does not ask and the number it leaves unanswered? My father is Welsh—will he have a vote in any referendum? As I have Welsh ancestry, will I have a vote in the referendum, should there ever be one?

§ Mr. Hague
I congratulate my hon. Friend on his ancestry. He raises a difficult question. I think that it was right for the Labour party to decide that, if it were ever able to propose an assembly, it would have a referendum on the matter. My hon. Friend was right, however, to point to the difficulties of a pre-legislation referendum. The hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Davies) said three weeks ago that the difficulty with a pre-legislation referendum is that so many questions cannot be answered. Two days later, he announced that a pre-legislation referendum was his policy.

§ Mr. Ron Davies
That is because we sorted out the difficulties and found the answers.
Why does the Conservative party always get itself into such great difficulty at the thought that the will of the people will prevail? Does the Secretary of State realise that what we have suggested is quite unexceptional? We will put our detailed proposals to the people in a White Paper, and ask specifically for their approval. If they say yes, we shall legislate on that basis. The hard question now is for the Secretary of State: will he recommend to whatever is left of the Conservative party after the general election that, if the people of Wales say that they want an assembly, no one should stand in their way?

§ Mr. Hague
The hon. Gentleman need not worry about our view on the will of the people, as the result was 4:1 against the idea of an assembly the last time it was 766 demonstrated on the matter. I believe that that is what will happen again, and the hon. Gentleman's hypothetical question will not arise. The most alarming thing about the whole episode has been that it shows that the Labour party's chief spokesman for Wales has no more influence in the party than anyone who happens to write on a postcard to the Leader of the Opposition, and probably a great deal less.

§ Mr. Marlow
What powers and influence would Welsh Members of Parliament—particularly Labour Members—and Welsh councillors have to concede to assembly men? Will that not cause a lot of petty jealousy and upset? Is there not the potential for a fracas outside the television studios, as assembly men try to climb over Members of Parliament to hog the limelight? Who will be responsible for what? Is it all necessary?

§ Mr. Hague
My hon. Friend points to some genuine difficulties. If responsibilities are transferred away from this House, Ministers can no longer be held accountable in this House and other people elsewhere will be held accountable for the matters. The role and power of this House would be diminished, and rival majorities in Cardiff, Edinburgh and Westminster would tear apart the United Kingdom. My hon. Friend asks about the influence of Labour Members. Clearly, at the moment, the Leader of the Opposition neither trusts nor takes seriously his Front Benchers, and I do not see why anybody else should do so.