HC Deb 10 July 1996 vol 281 cc447-72
Mrs. Liddell

I beg to move amendment No. 4, in page 18, leave out lines 16 to 28.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

With this, it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 6, in page 18, line 20, after 'assessment', insert ', at the request in writing of their parents or guardians,'.

No. 9, in page 18, line 22, at end insert '; but before making such regulations he shall consult such organisations as appear to him to be representative of local authorities and teachers.'.

Mrs. Liddell

The amendments will initiate a substantive debate on compulsory testing in schools. I wish to be clear: Labour supports testing as it is outlined in the five-to-14 curriculum. We believe, however, that parents' views should be taken into account whenever we discuss the recently introduced concept of compulsory national testing in Scottish schools. It is, of course, a concept that goes against the principle of post-primary education in Scotland.

We have a five-to-14 curriculum that is based on assessment of the pupil. The pupil is tested at the discretion of the teacher. Following that assessment, it is decided which band of testing should be introduced. There is a history in Scotland of parental opposition to compulsory testing.

It was the Secretary of State, whom we have not seen this evening, who was responsible for seeking to introduce compulsory testing in primary schools. There was a widespread outcry from parents and teachers. As a consequence, an arrangement was brokered by the Minister of State, which resulted in a system of testing, which I confess has been operated with parental support to date. I do not understand why the Government have now seen fit to introduce a system of testing that is at odds with the criteria laid down in the five-to-14 curriculum.

The Government make much of parental choice. I do not understand, therefore, why they should be opposed to the amendment. After all, the purpose behind it is to ensure that parental rights are explicitly stated, and that parents must be given the right to withdraw their children from compulsory tests.

In Committee, we discovered some disturbing elements of the Government's proposals. They were not properly thought out. It seems that they were introduced more as a consequence of electioneering on the part of the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, the hon. Member for Aberdeen, South (Mr. Robertson), at the Conservative party conference than as a result of careful thought. The Government's proposals were foisted on the Committee at the last moment.

The House will recall that, in the other place, a Special Standing Committee took evidence from a number of notable experts. As that Committee was not aware that compulsory national testing was to be introduced, it was denied the opportunity to consult experts on Scottish education. The eleventh-hour attempt to introduce compulsory national testing is designed to hoodwink the people of Scotland and disguise the Government's intentions.

In considering the Bill in Committee, it became apparent that it was the Government's intention to introduce testing as soon as children arrived for their first year of secondary education. I contend that we are talking about a return to the 11-plus system. We are talking also about introducing a system that will be externally set and marked. It will therefore not be part of the critical testing at is embodied in effective teaching and learning. That i testing within the natural confines of the classroom, as part of the natural teaching process, which is honoured by good teachers as part of their attempt to draw children on i to different grades in the five-to-14 curriculum.

Externally set tests mean that time is being taken from t aching during the first two years of secondary school. I reiterate my concern because we have seen a dip in pupil performance in S1 and S2. Rather than addressing that important matter, the Government seek to introduce bureaucratic external testing of young people. It is artificial, and it eats up valuable and sometimes limited time for teaching and learning.

If compulsory tests are introduced, children in secondary schools in Scotland will be tested in their first, cond, fourth, fifth and sixth years. They will be the most tested young people in Europe. Such testing will not add anything to the quality of teaching in the classroom, or to Vie quality of information that is available to parents.

If the Government genuinely believe in parental choice, they must give parents the right, explicitly stated, to withdraw their children from the testing that I have described. It is not enough for the Minister to say, "If parents do not want their children to do it, they can withdraw." It must be explicitly stated in the Bill that parents have that right. Otherwise, we shall be back to the conflicts when the right hon. Member for Stirling (Mr. Forsyth) tried to introduce compulsory testing in primary schools. Children who will be going to secondary school in a few weeks' time are the same children whose parents withdrew them from compulsory testing in primary schools.

Compulsory testing is at odds with parents' requests, and with the genesis of the five-to-14 curriculum. Furthermore, it covers only three aspects of the curriculum. What will happen to the other aspects that are not being tested, bearing in mind the time that will be lost in teaching those subjects?

If the Government were genuine about trying to improve performance in S1 and S2, they would examine the problems experienced by children who had been tested in primary school. A significant number of children are tested up to level D under the five-to-14 curriculum at primary school, so when they go to secondary school they experience a fallow period. The Government would do better to consider such details and issues affecting overload, teachers and the resources available to produce materials to ensure that five-to-14 testing is upgraded for secondary schools, because many of the test materials used are the same as those used in primary schools.

Compulsory testing goes against the advice of educationists. It is an ideological move to reintroduce the 11-plus and streaming. The Minister has told us that Her Majesty's inspectorate is to conduct an examination of streaming. Why is he so determined to prejudge that examination?

On Second Reading, the Secretary of State suggested that to attempt to educate a pupil without testing is as absurd as running a business without keeping accounts. That is a fallacious analogy. The Minister is seeking to introduce a system of testing whereby schools would be run by external auditors.

Furthermore, the Government have not advanced convincing arguments about the Scottish Qualifications Authority. We have not had any advice about what the tests are likely to cost. In the first two years, 366,000 tests could be set. It is ludicrous that the Government have not sought to give us information on this, which suggests that the whole proposal has been ill thought out.

The amendments seek to introduce a critical element of parental involvement. They seek to ensure that we get rid of a system that does not support the best ethos of Scottish education, and they seek to put in context a move that has been introduced by the Government for the most spurious of reasons.

The Government complain that there has not been sufficient testing in S1 and S2, but fail to acknowledge that testing as such could have been available only from August 1994. The figures from which they work are outdated, and they fail to take into account the need to re-evaluate bands A to D in the five-to-14 curriculum.

I urge the House to support the amendments. They are commonsense amendments, that would strike a chord with Scotland's parents, teachers and educationists.

Mr. Welsh

I shall speak to amendment No. 9, because I believe that consultation is of the essence.

The Government must listen to the views of those most affected by their proposals. The amendment says that, before making regulations, the Secretary of State shall consult such organisations as appear to him to be representative of local authorities and teachers. Given the controversy, opposition and fears about testing, there must be some mechanism to express genuine consumer reaction. That is the purpose of amendment No. 9.

Previous votes proved the Labour party wrong on three counts: first, the voucher amendments were debated on Report; secondly, the Government won easily—so two predictions fall—and, finally, Labour does not propose to divide the House on amendment No. 4. If it does not do so, there is always the Scottish National party to force the issue.

The Government's novel approach to secondary testing has been a recent addition to the Bill, and therefore requires maximum scrutiny by us. It is a pity that it has not been scrutinised more. The Labour and Conservative parties seem to be rushing the Bill through. That, too, is a pity, because it is so important that it requires the widest scrutiny.

Those who followed the Committee stage of the Bill will have witnessed the Government's repeated failure to address the many concerns of parents and professionals. I hope that the Minister will respond more positively, now or on Third Reading. His cavalier response to those genuinely expressed concerns was disturbing.

Those who followed the Committee stage will also have witnessed quite unprecedented collusion between the Front Benches. That disgraceful lack of effective opposition was highlighted in the attempt to rush through the debate on testing, and it has been replicated now.

6.15 pm
Mrs. Fyfe

The hon. Gentleman's speeches took up about a fifth of the column space in Hansard that was taken by my hon. Friend the Member for Monklands, East (Mrs. Liddell) and other Labour Members on the Committee. An objective reader of Hansard will realise who fought the Bill.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. We are debating not the Committee stage but a particular amendment and those associated with it.

Mr. Welsh

My speeches fitted the task. I was outnumbered 18 to one on the Committee, which left me vulnerable to such nonsense—and Labour nonsense it surely is.

The most galling feature of the Bill is that Tory Members from English constituencies will decide whether 120,000 Scottish S1 and S2 pupils are to be tested under the new system proposed by the Government. Only one of the silent three Tory Members who served on the Committee is present, although I dare say that the other two will vote. They do not understand the intricacies of the issue, but their voices will be heard above those of parents and teachers in Scotland—people with a deep knowledge and experience of the Scottish system. The views of Scottish Members and Scottish teachers and parents will come to naught in the face of the unquestioning and obedient Tory Lobby fodder. Who knows, the promised Government defeat might be delivered by the hon. Member for Monklands, East (Mrs. Liddell), but we shall not hold our breath.

I wish to raise a number of issues, but I shall limit my remarks to a small selection of concerns on which I should like a response from the Minister. Will he give some assurances about the logistics of the proposed S1 and S2 tests? About 360,000 examination papers and the associated curriculum must be in place in a little over a year—a year supposedly devoted to consultation on issues relating to testing materials and the development of the curriculum.

Does the hon. Gentleman honestly expect the House to believe that this is not a rushed project? He expects us to believe that he is allocating sufficient time for the development of the new S1 and S2 test. It cannot be over-emphasised that this new system is being loaded on a teaching profession which already works under the burden of previous Government-imposed burdens.

In Committee, we were not given a satisfactory estimate of costs, because the Government have not decided the basis for the tests or the type of materials to be used. What element of local authority expenditure is to be sacrificed to pay for these tests?

If local councils are to pay the Scottish Qualifications Authority for tests, the money will have to come out of some local authority budget. Are the new tests the best value for money for our local authorities? The Minister is normally prone to use that phrase. I do not think they are, and education professionals in Scotland share my judgment. There are cost implications and logistical difficulties, for a brand new type of test. The introduction of a test that flies in the face of the accepted structure of the five-to-14 system constitutes an important change to Scottish education.

The Minister has given figures relating to the level of testing in S 1 and S2, but those figures take into account only a narrow definition of assessment. The Minister knows that teachers are constantly assessing pupils' achievement; to say otherwise is to insult teachers in Scotland. Any extension of formal testing in secondary schools should proceed according to the five-to-14 model rather than—as the Government now suggest—in complete opposition to it.

The Minister has not given us an adequate assurance about the position of primary school pupils who have reached band E in the five-to-14 test. He has not explained why we should move from a system in which pupils are tested as and when they are judged to have reached a standard allowing them to progress to the next level to a system involving an inflexible test on a fixed day. Although that is a fundamental tenet of what the Minister is suggesting, he has never explained the educational reasons for such a system, or how it can be delivered.

Previous tests were developed to meet pupils' needs. The Government's proposals, however, are contrary to the accepted system, and seem to have been designed simply to meet their own short-sighted, narrow political needs. The five-to-14 system was developed, with much care and concern, in conjunction with the teaching profession.

The Minister's proposal goes against that consensus: he is tearing up a well-worked compromise, and forcing through a new anglicised system that jars with the experience and advice of teachers.

Mr. Raymond S. Robertson

indicated dissent.

Mr. Welsh

The Minister shakes his head, implying that he has not received such advice. I suggest that he has not spoken to many teachers; he certainly has not spoken to members of the Educational Institute of Scotland, because what I have said represents its stated view.

Amendment No. 4 would delete the provision for testing of secondary school pupils. For all the reasons that were given in Committee and have been given much more briefly today, it is important to halt the Government's damaging proposal and to leave time for the development of the five-to-14 system within S 1 and S2. The Scottish National party will support the amendment.

Amendment No. 6 introduces a more explicit statement of parental choice, which would guarantee that only children whose parents want them to take tests must do so. Rather than allowing ignorance of rights to result in some children's taking the tests, the amendment requires explicit action from parents who want their children to take them. We support it as well.

Amendment No. 9, which I tabled, simply highlights the lack of consultation involved in the drafting of this part of the Bill. The test proposal was foisted on us in Committee; it is disgraceful that the views of the professionals were not properly sought before the Bill was introduced. The amendment would introduce a statutory requirement for consultation with relevant bodies. In the course of such consultation, it would become apparent to the Government how deeply flawed and badly thought out their present proposal is—but the important thing is for the consultation to take place.

I urge the House to support the amendments, for the sake of the integrated five-to-14 system and to defend Scottish education from yet another politically motivated Tory innovation.

Mr. Michael Connarty (Falkirk, East)

I was struck by the way in which clause 32 was introduced at the last minute. The Minister behaved rather like the Spartans, who, when about to die, stayed behind their shields before perishing in a hail of arrows from their enemies. Similarly, determined to retain all their ideologies as they fought to the death, the Government introduced this last crazy measure, not only to introduce testing in S I and S2 as a substitute for the 11-plus, but to introduce external testing in secondary schools.

That shows how out of touch the Government are with the people of Scotland. This is not about education, but about ideology: in a final effort before going into their death throes, the Government have gathered all their crazy ideology into an education Bill. I am glad they have, because the people of Scotland will have even more reason to vote them out of office when they have the chance.

The Minister consistently said that the measure concerned the level of testing in S1 and S2, and named one or two Scottish regions where he considered the level very low. He did not recognise that the real problem was persuading the teaching profession that resources and materials would be made available to make it relevant to use the five-to-14 testing and assessment structures worked out by the Government, the profession and Scottish schools over the past decade.

It seems that the Minister is putting down a marker to the English constituencies where he will have to plead for a job after he is rejected by the Scottish people. This is not anglicised ideology, but ill-thought-out ideology, wherever it is found—on whichever side of the border, and in whichever country. The Government will say that they tried to introduce it in Scotland. Admittedly, the Minister will probably add that he failed, but he will say that he did at least try.

The Government's proposal is not about educational development, or the philosophy of assessment papers in the five-to-14 curriculum. I am not sure whether the Minister has read and considered them in the context of his silly plan for external testing. The Minister of State, Scottish Office, the right hon. Member for Edinburgh, West (Lord James Douglas-Hamilton), who was responsible for developing the assessment philosophy for some time, clearly read and understood the papers, because he turned against the compulsory testing that the present Secretary of State for Scotland tried to introduce. If this Minister had read them, he would realise that there was a good deal that people could be persuaded to introduce in terms of assessment.

Everyone recognises the need for a level A in five-to-14 assessment, to stretch pupils in S1 and S2 who have not yet reached that level. The Minister, however, has set up an external process of "setting". He said in Committee that there would be no streaming, but that there would be setting.

Taking three different subjects, testing pupils and trying to "set" them according to three different responses, however, along with the difficulty of timetabling in a secondary school, will result in de facto streaming. If an attempt is made to set an external test in three different subjects for pupils who have reached a particular level when there is a timetabling difficulty, groups of pupils will constantly be streamed into lower sets, and will be deprived of educational opportunities.

That is worse than pandering to the philosophy that I have heard in some secondary staffrooms. Some teachers feel that the less able kids get under the feet of the bright ones in senior secondary schools, and would prefer them to be removed from classes by some means or other. It is worse because it allows an external agency to come into schools and put pupils into separate categories without giving teachers a chance to assess them. I deprecate that philosophy, which still exists in some senior secondary schools in Scotland which have turned into comprehensives, but I deprecate even more the idea that an external agency will come in and do the setting, which will lead to streaming.

As we heard in Committee, some people applauded this initiative, comparing it with their experiences of the old weeding-out process. That is what the 11-plus was about—weeding out the children who were seen to be less able, and getting them out from under the feet of those who were seen to be brighter. We used to do that by sending them to junior secondary schools, and sending the brighter ones to senior secondary schools.

As hon. Members said in Committee, the process was deeply flawed: many who went to junior secondary schools found their way back into education at a higher level, and proved that they were as bright as those who had secured senior secondary places and passed the 11-plus. That will be repeated in Scotland if the Government ever have a chance to implement this scheme. Pupils will be weeded out and put into lower sets and streams, and will have to fight their way back into adequate education.

I am thinking of every parent in Scotland, not just those in less well-off communities who may not have academic achievements themselves. The Government's proposals do not concern only them; they concern every middle-class home that faces the possibility that an external agency will mark down children of 12 or 13 as failures, weeding them out of the higher sets and higher streams in secondary schools and depriving them of educational opportunities.

I ask the House to reject this mad idea, and I ask parents to resist testing if the Government try to implement it—just as a trial run, to flex their muscles in preparation for the opportunity to reject this Government, which will come within a year.

6.30 pm
Mr. Wallace

On Second Reading, the Secretary of State for Scotland produced the idea of secondary testing in S1 and S2 out of a hat. It was clear, as the debate progressed and, in particular, after my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Fife, North-East (Mr. Campbell) had asked him about parental choice, that the policy had never been thought through in any great detail. It almost seemed to develop as the debate progressed.

I have the horrible feeling that we have been here before. As the hon. Member for Monklands, East (Mrs. Liddell) said, it was the Secretary of State who, when he was a junior Minister with responsibility for education, caused chaos in classrooms through his insistence on external testing. It took all the diplomatic skills of the right hon. Member for Edinburgh, West (Lord James Douglas-Hamilton), when he took over the reins of junior Minister with responsibility for education, to—

Mr. Salmond

Clear up the mess.

Mr. Wallace

To clear up the mess.

The development of assessment by teachers, of a pupil-oriented system, of where testing can be used, of a bank of tests, of close consultation with the profession and of testing to evaluate assessments, is envied in many other parts of the United Kingdom. The Secretary of State wants, however, to put the clock back and to re-sow the seeds of compulsory testing and all the disruption that that caused.

The objection is to the rigid imposition of testing. As the hon. Member for Angus, East (Mr. Welsh) has said, there is no bank of tests. We have not been told what the cost is. If the proposal had been in the Bill from the outset, its financial memorandum would have told us what the cost would be, but, as it was introduced by way of an amendment in Committee, we do not know the cost or where the local authorities can find resources to fund the policy.

Many people are concerned that testing early in the secondary lifetime of a young person could reintroduce the 11-plus by the back door. I was possibly in the last year that sat the 11-plus, but it damaged generations of young Scots, who were branded at a relatively young age. As the hon. Member for Falkirk, East (Mr. Connarty) said, some managed to recover, but many were classified as having failed at that age, and never quite made their way back.

The important part of amendment No. 6 is that it will ensure that any testing would require the written consent or request of parents and guardians. When the matter was debated on Second Reading, the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland said: the SQA will be supplying exams at standard grade and higher grade. It is up to parents, teachers and pupils whether pupils sit those exams. It will be the same for new national exams set by the SQA at S1 and S2."—[Official Report, 4 June 1996; Vol. 278, c. 444.] He said, "parents, teachers and pupils". Perhaps when he replies to the debate, he will confirm either that testing will take place only if teachers, parents and pupils all agree that it should take place, or that he is retreating from that. If he can give that assurance, that might put testing in a different light.

Mr. Raymond S. Robertson

As I said repeatedly in Committee, it is up to parents to decide whether their child sits the test. Parents can consult anyone they want to consult. It could be the pupil, the teacher or the child's granny, for that matter. It is the parents' decision.

Mr. Wallace

That being the case, I am sure that the Minister will have no difficulty in accepting amendment No. 6. My hon. Friends believe that the Government's proposal is potentially a Trojan horse, which could damage young people. Therefore, we believe it would be much better if the Government dealt with other important issues, such as the proper development of the five-to-14 curriculum in S1 and S2, which is widely accepted as not having been properly progressed. It might be better if that were the focus of the Government's attention, rather than the wish to proceed with potentially dangerous and rigid compulsory testing, as proposed in the clause that they added in Committee.

Mr. Salmond

In rising to support all three of the amendments in this group, I say to the hon. Member for Glasgow, Maryhill (Mrs. Fyfe) that I could do a lot worse than to start with the arguments of the magnum opus—the excellent 90-minute speech in Committee made by my hon. Friend the Member for Angus, East (Mr. Welsh), who went through the debate issue by issue, and discussed the impact of compulsory testing on parents and teachers. [Interruption.] I can do that, if hon. Members want. My hon. Friend demonstrated how the Minister's proposals were rejected by every person with an interest in the vast majority of Scottish opinion.

This debate exemplifies the Government's problems with Scottish society. Professional and parental opinion is firmly against the Minister's proposals on this issue, yet those expressions of opinion are treated with total contempt. When my hon. Friend the Member for Angus, East mentioned the Educational Institute of Scotland, I saw the Minister roll his eyes and look up to the ceiling, as if he could just dismiss that professional organisation's opinions as below consideration in his evaluation.

When they came to see me to discuss these measures, EIS members were divided on the Minister's political future. None of them wanted him to be the Minister with responsibility for education in Scotland, but some were worried that, if he lost his seat, he might return to the profession. There is no excuse for the Minister treating with such contempt the expressions of both parental and professional opinion on these matters. That goes to the heart of what is wrong with the Conservative party's approach to Scottish legislation and to wider Scottish society.

The Conservative party is exercised by the view that many people in Scotland, including its supporters, regard it as anti-Scottish, so it has embarked on a series of publicity and public relations stunts to try to massage back a Scottish image. It has a new logo, and it has returned the Stone of Destiny. It is trying to emphasise the party's Scottish credentials at every opportunity, but, on the issue of Scottish education, it treats with contempt the expressions of opinion from Scotland. Eighty per cent. of people involved in the consultation process say that the Conservative party is going in the wrong direction, but that is swept aside by the Minister in his approach.

On the legislative process, during this debate there have never been more than six Conservative Members in the House. There are currently five. Every one of them is on the payroll vote. The Conservative party cannot even bother to bring its members in to debate the issues, which it knows are regarded with derision and opposition in Scottish society. It then wonders why so many people in Scotland, including its supporters, regard it as anti-Scottish in its approach to legislation and to politics.

The hon. Member for Falkirk, East (Mr. Connarty) disagreed with my hon. Friend the Member for Angus, East when he said that this was not an anglicisation process. I think the Secretary of State has embarked on such a process. The same point has been made by the hon. Member for Monklands, East (Mrs. Liddell). The essence of the Secretary of State's approach to Scottish education has been to try to run down its integrated character and to introduce the social divisiveness and fragmentation that exists in the education system south of the border.

Mr. Connarty

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that many other countries still hold to the mythology that people should be divided at an early age into those who will be technocrats and those who will be academics? It is flawed in those countries, as it is when applied in the UK.

Mr. Salmond

I fully accept that point, but I am dealing with the motivation of the Secretary of State for Scotland, with whom I had discussions a long time ago. He has regarded Scottish education and the integrated nature of Scottish education as a bulwark against his party's interest in Scotland. He regards the facts that 97 per cent. of Scottish children go to comprehensive schools and Scottish education does not have social divisiveness in the system as an obstacle to the Conservative party's political progress in Scotland. That is why he takes as his model what has happened south of the border, with the fragmented state of education there, and why my hon. Friend the Member for Angus, East and the hon. Member for Monklands, East were right to point to an anglicisation process.

If the Under-Secretaryof State wants to know why his party is so poorly regarded in Scotland, and why it is thought of as anti-Scottish, he needs to reflect no further than on his attitude towards the submissions made by professional and parental organisations on this measure, and on the contempt with which he and his colleagues have treated this part of Scottish legislation this night, even to the extent of refusing to take an intervention from the leader of the Liberal party in Scotland—the Minister is clock-watching, worried that the issue of ministerial salaries will not be debated according to the timetable set by the Whips. That shows the extent of the Minister's contempt for Scottish education, and as long as he holds it in contempt, the overwhelming majority of the Scottish people will hold him and his party in contempt.

Mr. Davidson

There is a great deal to be said for testing and assessment in S1 and S2 and for devising measures to assess the value that is added by individual schools as part of a thorough system of measurement and assessment that will analyse weaknesses and support pupils and schools. In view of that, why is it that so much of Scottish opinion is so strongly hostile to the Government's proposals? The simple answer is that the Scottish people do not trust the Tories on education. Everything that is propagated by the Government is treated with suspicion, if not derision, because people assume that there is a hidden agenda that runs counter to the general trend of Scottish opinion.

The measure is designed to introduce CCT—compulsory competitive testing—into Scottish education. It is about setting school against school and pupil against pupil. It is about not diagnosis and assistance but passing and failing. It is about assessing the output of primary schools, setting one against the other, to see which school has managed to produce the most passes at secondary level. It measures one secondary school against another to see the percentage of the intake with higher passes at S1 and S2.

As hon. Members have said, the measure is about separating pupils into the sheep and the goats—those on whom the school system should be encouraged to spend more time and effort and those whom it should decide simply to leave by the wayside, the people who will be the hewers of wood and the drawers of water in our future system. That is the complete opposite of the way in which the vast majority of people view the Scottish education system and believe that it should develop, and that is why Scottish opinion is so hostile to the Government's proposals.

I have some questions about compulsion and I should be grateful if the Minister could find time to answer them. I understand that he is to give education authorities a specific statutory duty to conduct tests in S1 and S2. The same would apply to school boards and presumably to the boards of opted-out schools. How does he square that with the idea that opting out gives schools greater flexibility and freedom? Would opted-out schools not have to participate in S1 and S2 tests? If they have to participate in those tests, their position is no different from that of any other school in Scotland.

What about the right of individual members of staff to choose? I know where I stand on the issue of whether staff should have the right to choose whether to participate in those tests, but it will be valuable to hear the Government's stand. The Minister seemed to suggest, although I may have misunderstood him, that parents would not be compelled to make their youngsters participate in the tests. In that case, does the Minister intend to have an opt-in or an opt-out procedure or will the child simply participate unless the parents take the child away from the school on the day of the tests? Scottish parents need to know exactly how that would operate.

It seems that we are being given the opportunity to have referendums in Scotland on education. How many Scottish parents were prepared to allow their children to participate in testing during the Government's previous attempts to have compulsory competitive testing for primary pupils? I know the answer to that because at that time I was the chair of education in Strathclyde. It is, not a lot. The vast majority of parents chose to withdraw their children from compulsory competitive testing in the primary sector and I think that they will choose to do the same in the secondary sector. When that happens, I hope that the Government will not back away from their measure. Let us have it as a referendum. Introduce the tests this year and measure the success of the Government's policy by the number of parents who are prepared to allow their children to be tested when they are given a free choice. The result will be an indictment of the Government and will show that people in Scotland have no faith in them. It will be a clear measure of the way in which unionism in the House is being operated by the Government in a way that is detrimental to Scotland's interests, to Scottish education and to the Union itself.

6.45 pm
Mr. Raymond S. Robertson

In Committee, I described in detail the reasons why my hon. Friends and I consider it vital for measures to be taken as soon as possible to ensure that S1 and S2 pupils and their parents are able to benefit from the introduction of national tests. I shall repeat the main reasons for clause 32.

Since 1994, education authorities have failed to ensure that national tests are carried out in secondary schools, despite having agreed to conduct them. Pupils who progress through primary school and receive regular information on the basis of nationally set tests lose access to that as soon as they move to secondary school. Testing early in S1 and towards the end of the time in S2 would enable information to be made available on the progress that had been made during those two vital years of a pupil's formal education.

National testing in primary schools has proved successful and has been welcomed by pupils, parents and teachers. It is quite unacceptable for education authorities to be allowed to continue to deny parents and children those key benefits at such an important stage in a child's education. The acceptance of amendment No. 6 would mean that each year the parents or guardians of children in S1 or S2 would have to submit in writing a request for their children to sit a national test. That would place an unnecessary burden on parents and guardians and on the education authorities, which would have to divert resources to that exercise. I think that the vast majority of parents would want to have their children tested and to have access to the results and to the teacher's informed judgment about the next appropriate steps in the child's educational development. In our primary schools, where 90 per cent. of children are being tested at one of the five-to-14 attainment levels, withdrawals are so rare that education authorities have never drawn them to our attention.

Our position on parental choice is perfectly clear, workable and straightforward. Parents who do not wish their child to participate in national tests in S1 and S2 are free to withdraw that child. We envisage that that would be done by the simple expedient of the parents making their wishes clear in writing to the head of the school. I cannot support the introduction of what would be a completely unnecessary burden on parents and education authorities, a burden that is designed to frustrate the Government's plans to spread the benefits of national testing to secondary schools.

On amendment No. 9, I have made it abundantly clear in Committee and elsewhere that I intend to consult widely and in depth before introducing the proposed regulations and details of the test arrangements. I fail to see why it is necessary to include in statute reference to bodies which I shall involve in that exercise as a matter of course. The House has my assurance on that, and I ask it to oppose the amendments.

Mrs. Liddell

I regret that the Minister has failed to take account of the many points that were raised in the debate. His argument against amendment No. 6 is bizarre in the extreme and totally spurious. He said that it would place an unnecessary burden on parents. The burden that he is putting on parents is their right to withdraw their children from testing. His response to the speech by the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Wallace) about the role of parents, teachers and pupils withdrawing a child from testing was also bizarre. Apparently anyone, including the pupil, can withdraw a child from the tests.

Mr. Robertson

The hon. Lady was obviously talking to her hon. Friend, which is what she has been doing for most of the debate. I said that it was up to the parent to decide whether to withdraw a child but that, as always, the parent was at liberty to consult anyone. The final decision belongs to parents. That is what I said, and the hon. Lady does me a disservice by misquoting me.

Mrs. Liddell

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for clearing that up, because I did misunderstand him. I heard him say that grannies could be involved as well.

The Minister has failed to take into account some key issues about the progress of testing in primary schools, and he has repeatedly failed to take into account the fact that there is assessment up to band D in primary schools. One major reason for many children not being tested in S1 and S2 under current arrangements is that they have already been tested to that level in primary school. He also failed to take into account the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Falkirk, East (Mr. Connarty), who pointed out the impact that failure can have on a child.

We have a very good education system in Scotland, but one of our disadvantages—which has built up over time—is that we do not inculcate self-confidence in our young people. What possible chance do we have to create a climate of achievement when we build failure into the system at a time when children should be instilled with the confidence to go forward with their secondary education and to feel that they had an opportunity to achieve vocationally and academically?

My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Govan (Mr. Davidson) pointed out that one of our main criticisms of the Government is that the people of Scotland do not trust the Tories with Scottish education. We have debated whether there is anglicisation of Scottish education. I think that there is. Even the timing of this amendment demonstrates that, as it was introduced at exactly the same time as the Secretary of State for Education and Employment introduced proposals for England and Wales. The Prime Minister said that he wanted a grammar school in every town. I contend that the Minister, who is responsible for education in Scotland, wants a senior secondary in every town.

We have had an interesting debate. I regret that the Minister has not dealt with the points that we made. Therefore, we shall press amendment No. 4 to a Division.

We have also had an interesting diversion today by hon. Members from the Scottish National party, one of which reminded me of the words of that great parliamentarian, Lord Healey. Like him, I now know what it feels like to be savaged by a dead sheep. It is very interesting that SNP Members have shown such great interest in attacking the Labour party and Labour's plans for putting Scottish education back where it belongs.

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The House divided: Ayes 256, Noes 291.

Division No. 186] [6.51 pm
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane Chisholm, Malcolm
Adams, Mrs Irene Clapham, Michael
Ainger, Nick Clark, Dr David (South Shields)
Allen, Graham Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)
Alton, David Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)
Anderson, Ms Janet (Ros'dale) Clelland, David
Ashton, Joe Clwyd, Mrs Ann
Austin-Walker, John Coffey, Ann
Banks, Tony (Newham NW) Connarty, Michael
Barron, Kevin Cook, Frank (Stockton N)
Battle, John Cook, Robin (Livingston)
Bayley, Hugh Corbett, Robin
Beckett, Rt Hon Margaret Corbyn, Jeremy
Bell, Stuart Corston, Jean
Benn, Rt Hon Tony Cousins, Jim
Bennett, Andrew F Cox, Tom
Benton, Joe Cunliffe, Lawrence
Bermingham, Gerald Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE)
Berry, Roger Cunningham, Roseanna
Betts, Clive Dafis, Cynog
Blunkett, David Dalyell, Tam
Boateng, Paul Darling, Alistair
Bradley, Keith Davidson, Ian
Bray, Dr Jeremy Davies, Chris (L'Boro & S'worth)
Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E) Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)
Brown, N (N'c'tle upon Tyne E) Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon) Denham, John
Byers, Stephen Dewar, Donald
Callaghan, Jim Dixon, Don
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge) Dobson, Frank
Campbell, Mercies (Fife NE) Donohoe, Brian H
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V) Dowd, Jim
Campbell-Savours, D N Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth
Canavan, Dennis Eagle, Ms Angela
Cann, Jamie Eastham, Ken
Carlile, Alexander (Montgomery) Etherington, Bill
Chidgey, David Evans, John (St Helens N)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret Macdonald, Calum
Fatchett, Derek McFall, John
Faulds, Andrew McKelvey, William
Field, Frank (Birkenhead) Mackinlay, Andrew
Fisher, Mark McLeish, Henry
Flynn, Paul Maclennan, Robert
Foster, Rt Hon Derek McNamara, Kevin
Foster, Don (Bath) MacShane, Denis
Foulkes, George McWilliam, John
Fyfe, Maria Madden, Max
Galbraith, Sam Maddock, Diana
Galloway, George Mahon, Alice
Gapes, Mike Mandelson, Peter
Garrett, John Marek, Dr John
Gerrard, Neil Martlew, Eric
Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John Meacher, Michael
Godman, Dr Norman A Michael, Alun
Godsiff, Roger Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)
Golding, Mrs Llin Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll & Bute)
Gordon, Mildred Milburn, Alan
Graham, Thomas Miller, Andrew
Grant, Bernie (Tottenham) Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S) Moonie, Dr Lewis
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend) Morgan, Rhodri
Grocott, Bruce Morley, Elliot
Gunnell, John Morris, Rt Hon Alfred (Wy'nshawe)
Hain, Peter Morris, Estelle (B'ham Yardley)
Hall, Mike Morris, Rt Hon John (Aberavon)
Hanson, David Mudie, George
Hardy, Peter Mullin, Chris
Harvey, Nick Murphy, Paul
Heppell, John Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon
Hill, Keith (Streatham) O'Brien, William (Normanton)
Hinchliffe, David O'Hara, Edward
Hodge, Margaret Olner, Bill
Hoey, Kate O'Neill, Martin
Hogg, Norman (Cumbernauld) Orme, Rt Hon Stanley
Home Robertson, John Parry, Robert
Hood, Jimmy Pearson, Ian
Hoon, Geoffrey Pendry, Tom
Howarth, George (Knowsley North) Pickthall, Colin
Howells, Dr Kim (Pontypridd) Pike, Peter L
Hoyle, Doug Pope, Greg
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N) Powell, Sir Ray (Ogmore)
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) Prentice, Bridget (Lew'm E)
Hughes, Simon (Southwark) Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Hutton, John Primarolo, Dawn
Illsley, Eric Purchase, Ken
Ingram, Adam Quin, Ms Joyce
Jackson, Glenda (H'stead) Radice, Giles
Jackson, Helen (Shef'ld, H) Randall, Stuart
Jamieson, David Raynsford, Nick
Janner, Greville Reid, Dr John
Jenkins, Brian (SE Staff) Rendel, David
Jones, Ieuan Wyn (Ynys Môm) Robertson, George (Hamilton)
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C) Robinson, Geoffrey (Co'try NW)
Jones, Lynne (B'ham S O) Roche, Mrs Barbara
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd, SW) Rogers, Allan
Jowell, Tessa Rooker, Jeff
Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald Rooney, Terry
Keen, Alan Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Kennedy, Jane (L'pool Br'dg'n) Rowlands, Ted
Khabra, Piara S Salmond, Alex
Kilfoyle, Peter Sedgemore, Brian
Kirkwood, Archy Sheerman, Barry
Lewis, Terry Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert
Liddell, Mrs Helen Simpson, Alan
Litherland, Robert Skinner, Dennis
Livingstone, Ken Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)
Lloyd, Tony (Stretford) Smith, Chris (Isl'ton S & F'sbury)
Llwyd, Elfyn Soley, Clive
Loyden, Eddie Spearing, Nigel
Lynne, Ms Liz Spellar, John
McAllion, John Squire, Rachel (Dunfermline W)
McAvoy, Thomas Steinberg, Gerry
McCartney, Ian Stevenson, George
Stott, Roger Wareing, Robert N
Strang, Dr. Gavin Watson, Mike
Straw, Jack Welsh, Andrew
Sutcliffe, Gerry Wicks, Malcolm
Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury) Wigley, Dafydd
Taylor, Matthew (Truro) Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Sw'n W)
Thompson, Jack (Wansbeck) Wilson, Brian
Timms, Stephen Winnick, David
Tipping, Paddy Wise, Audrey
Touhig, Don Worthington, Tony
Trickett, Jon Wray, Jimmy
Turner, Dennis Wright, Dr Tony
Tyler, Paul Young, David
Walker, Rt Hon Sir Harold
Wallace, James Tellers for the Ayes:
Walley, Joan Mr. John Cummings and Mr. Robert Ainsworth.
Wardell, Gareth (Gower)
NOES
Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey) Coe, Sebastian
Aitken, Rt Hon Jonathan Colvin, Michael
Alexander, Richard Congdon, David
Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby) Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st)
Allason, Rupert (Torbay) Coombs, Simon (Swindon)
Amess, David Cope, Rt Hon Sir John
Arbuthnot, James Cormack, Sir Patrick
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) Couchman, James
Ashby, David Cran, James
Atkins, Rt Hon Robert Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire)
Atkinson, David (Bour'mouth E) Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon)
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham) Davies, Quentin (Stamford)
Baker, Rt Hon Kenneth (Mole V) Davis, David (Boothferry)
Baker, Nicholas (North Dorset) Day, Stephen
Banks, Matthew (Southport) Deva, Nirj Joseph
Banks, Robert (Harrogate) Devlin, Tim
Bates, Michael Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James
Batiste, Spencer Dover, Den
Beggs, Roy Duncan, Alan
Bellingham, Henry Duncan Smith, Iain
Bendall, Vivian Dunn, Bob
Beresford, Sir Paul Durant, Sir Anthony
Biffen, Rt Hon John Dykes, Hugh
Body, Sir Richard Eggar, Rt Hon Tim
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas Elletson, Harold
Booth, Hartley Emery, Rt Hon Sir Peter
Boswell, Tim Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield)
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham) Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley)
Bottomley, Rt Hon Virginia Evans, Roger (Monmouth)
Bowden, Sir Andrew Evennett, David
Bowis, John Faber, David
Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes Fabricant, Michael
Brandreth, Gyles Fenner, Dame Peggy
Brazier, Julian Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)
Bright, Sir Graham Fishburn, Dudley
Brooke, Rt Hon Peter Forsythe, Clifford (S Antrim)
Brown, M (Brigg & Cl'thorpes) Forth, Eric
Browning, Mrs Angela Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman
Bruce, Ian (South Dorset) Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)
Budgen, Nicholas Freeman, Rt Hon Roger
Burns, Simon French, Douglas
Burt, Alistair Fry, Sir Peter
Butcher, John Gale, Roger
Butler, Peter Gallie, Phil
Butterfill, John Gardiner, Sir George
Carlisle, John (Luton North) Garnier, Edward
Carlisle, Sir Kenneth (Lincoln) Gill, Christopher
Carrington, Matthew Gillan, Cheryl
Carttiss, Michael Goodlad, Rt Hon Alastair
Cash, William Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles
Channon, Fit Hon Paul Gorman, Mrs Teresa
Chapman, Sir Sydney Gorst, Sir John
Churchill, Mr Grant, Sir A (SW Cambs)
Clappison, James Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford) Greenway, John (Ryedale)
Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Ru'clif) Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N)
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Grylls, Sir Michael
Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn Montgomery, Sir Fergus
Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archibald Needham, Rt Hon Richard
Hamilton, Neil (Tatton) Neubert, Sir Michael
Hannam, Sir John Newton, Rt Hon Tony
Hargreaves, Andrew Nicholls, Patrick
Haselhurst, Sir Alan Nicholson, David (Taunton)
Hawkins, Nick Norris, Steve
Hawksley, Warren Oppenheim, Phillip
Heald, Oliver Ottaway, Richard
Heathcoat-Amory, Rt Hon David Page, Richard
Hendry, Charles Paice, James
Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael Patnick, Sir Irvine
Hicks, Sir Robert Patten, Rt Hon John
Higgins, Rt Hon Sir Terence Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Hill, Sir James (Southampton Test) Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth
Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas (G'tham) Pickles, Eric
Horam, John Porter, Barry (Wirral S)
Hordern, Rt Hon Sir Peter Porter, David (Waveney)
Howard, Rt Hon Michael Powell, William (Corby)
Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford) Redwood, Rt Hon John
Howell, Sir Ralph (N Norfolk) Renton, Rt Hon Tim
Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W) Richards, Rod
Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W) Riddick, Graham
Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne) Robathan, Andrew
Hunter, Andrew Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn
Jack, Michael Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S)
Jackson, Robert (Wantage) Robinson, Mark (Somerton)
Jenkin, Bernard Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne)
Jessel, Toby Ross, William (E Londonderry)
Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey Rowe, Andrew (Mid Kent)
Jones, Gwirym (Cardiff N) Rumbold, Rt Hon Dame Angela
Jones, Robert B (W Hertfdshr) Ryder, Rt Hon Richard
Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine Sackville, Tom
Key, Robert Sainsbury, Rt Hon Sir Timothy
King, Rt Hon Tom Scott, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
Kirkhope, Timothy Shaw, David (Dover)
Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash) Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)
Knight, Rt Hon Greg (Derby N) Shephard, Rt Hon Gillian
Knox, Sir David Shepherd, Sir Colin (Hereford)
Kynoch, George (Kincardine) Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)
Lait, Mrs Jacqui Shersby, Sir Michael
Lang, Rt Hon Ian Sims, Sir Roger
Lawrence, Sir Ivan Skeet, Sir Trevor
Legg, Barry Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick)
Leigh, Edward Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)
Lennox-Boyd, Sir Mark Smyth, The Reverend Martin
Lester, Sir James (Broxtowe) Soames, Nicholas
Lidington, David Speed, Sir Keith
Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham) Spencer, Sir Derek
Lord, Michael Spicer, Sir Michael (S Worcs)
Luff, Peter Spink, Dr Robert
Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas Spring, Richard
MacGregor, Rt Hon John Sproat Iain
MacKay, Andrew Squire, Robin (Hornchurch)
Maclean, Rt Hon David Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John
McLoughlin, Patrick Steen, Anthony
McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick Stephen, Michael
Madel, Sir David Stern, Michael
Maitland, Lady Olga Stewart, Allan
Major, Rt Hon John Streeter, Gary
Malone, Gerald Sumberg, David
Marland, Paul Sweeney, Walter
Marlow, Tony Sykes, John
Marshall, John (Hendon S) Tapsell, Sir Peter
Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel) Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Martin, David (Portsmouth S) Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Mates, Michael Taylor, Sir Teddy (Southend, E)
Mawhinney, Rt Hon Dr Brian Temple-Morris, Peter
Mellor, Rt Hon David Thomason, Roy
Merchant, Piers Thompson, Sir Donald (C'er V)
Mills, Iain Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling) Thornton, Sir Malcolm
Mitchell, Sir David (NW Hants) Townend, John (Bridlington)
Moate, Sir Roger Townsend, Cyril D (Bexl'yh'th)
Molyneaux, Rt Hon Sir James Tracey, Richard
Monro, Rt Hon Sir Hector Tredinnick, David
Trend, Michael Whitney, Ray
Trotter, Neville Whittingdale, John
Twinn, Dr Ian Widdecombe, Ann
Vaughan, Sir Gerard Wiggin, Sir Jerry
Viggers, Peter Wilkinson, John
Waldegrave, Rt Hon William Willetts, David
Winterton, Nicholas (Macc'f'ld)
Walden, George Wolfson, Mark
Walker, Bill (N Tayside) Wood, Timothy
Waller, Gary Yeo, Tim
Ward, John Young, Rt Hon Sir George
Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Waterson, Nigel Tellers for the Noes:
Watts, John Mr. Derek Conway and
Wells, Bowen Mr. Roger Knapman.

Question accordingly negatived.

Amendment proposed: No. 9, in page 18, line 22, at end insert

'; but before making such regulations he shall consult such organisations as appear to him to be representative of local authorities and teachers.'.—[Mr. Welsh.]

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The House divided: Ayes 30, Noes 276

Division No. 187] [7.04 pm
AYES
Beggs, Roy Maddock, Mrs Diana
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon) Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll & Bute)
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE) Molyneaux, Rt Hon Sir James
Canavan, Dennis Rendel, David
Carlile, Alexander (Montgomery) Ross, William (E Londonderry)
Chidgey, David Skinner, Dennis
Dafis, Cynog Smyth, The Reverend Martin
Davies, Chris (L'Boro & S'worth) Steel, Rt Hon Sir David
Ewing, Mrs Margaret Taylor, Rt Hon John D (Strgfd)
Forsythe, Clifford (S Antrim) Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Foster, Don (Bath) Tyler, Paul
Harvey, Nick Wallace, James
Hughes, Simon (Southwark) Welsh, Andrew
Kirkwood, Archy
Llwyd, Elfyn Tellers for the Ayes:
Lynne, Ms Liz Mr. Alex Salmond and
Maclennan, Robert Ms Roseanna Cunningham.
NOES
Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey) Bowden, Sir Andrew
Aitken, Rt Hon Jonathan Bowis, John
Alexander, Richard Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes
Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby) Brandreth, Gyles
Allason, Rupert (Torbay) Brazier, Julian
Amess, David Bright, Sir Graham
Arbuthnot, James Brown, M (Brigg & Cl'thorpes)
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) Browning, Mrs Angela
Ashby, David Bruce, Ian (South Dorset)
Atkins, Rt Hon Robert Budgen, Nicholas
Atkinson, David (Bour'mouth E) Burns, Simon
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham) Burt, Alistair
Baker, Rt Hon Kenneth (Mole V) Butcher, John
Baker, Nicholas (North Dorset) Butler, Peter
Banks, Matthew (Southport) Butterfill, John
Banks, Robert (Harrogate) Carlisle, John (Luton North)
Bates, Michael Carlisle, Sir Kenneth (Lincoln)
Batiste, Spencer Carrington, Matthew
Bellingham, Henry Carttiss, Michael
Bendal, Vivian Cash, William
Beresford, Sir Paul Channon, Rt Hon Paul
Body, Sir Richard Chapman, Sir Sydney
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas Churchill, Mr
Booth, Hartley Clappison, James
Boswell, Tim Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham) Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Bottomley, Rt Hon Virginia Coe, Sebastian
Colvin, Michael Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W)
Congdon, David Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W)
Conway, Derek Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne)
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st) Hunter, Andrew
Coombs, Simon (Swindon) Jenkin, Bernard
Cope, Rt Hon Sir John Jessel, Toby
Cormack, Sir Patrick Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey
Couchman, James Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)
Cran, James Jones, Robert B (W Hertfdshr)
Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire) Jopling, Rt Hon Michael
Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon) Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine
Davies, Quentin (Stamford) Key, Robert
Davis, David (Boothferry) King, Rt Hon Tom
Day, Stephen Kirkhope, Timothy
Deva, Nirj Joseph Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)
Devlin, Tim Knight, Rt Hon Greg (Derby N)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James Knox, Sir David
Dover, Den Kynoch, George (Kincardine)
Duncan, Alan Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Duncan Smith, Iain Lang, Rt Hon Ian
Dunn, Bob Lawrence, Sir Ivan
Durant, Sir Anthony Legg, Barry
Dykes, Hugh Leigh, Edward
Eggar, Rt Hon Tim Lennox-Boyd, Sir Mark
Elletson, Harold Lester, Sir James (Broxtowe)
Emery, Rt Hon Sir Peter Lidington, David
Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield) Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)
Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley) Lord, Michael
Evans, Roger (Monmouth) Luff, Peter
Evennett, David Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
Faber, David MacKay, Andrew
Fabricant, Michael Maclean, Rt Hon David
Fenner, Dame Peggy McLoughlin, Patrick
Field, Barry (Isle of Wight) McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick
Fishburn, Dudley Madel, Sir David
Forth, Eric Maitland, Lady Olga
Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman Malone, Gerald
Freeman, Rt Hon Roger Marland, Paul
French, Douglas Marlow, Tony
Fry, Sir Peter Marshall, John (Hendon S)
Gale, Roger Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)
Gallie, Phil Martin, David (Portsmouth S)
Gardiner, Sir George Mawhinney, Rt Hon Dr Brian
Garnier, Edward Mellor, Rt Hon David
Gill, Christopher Merchant Piers
Gillan, Cheryl Mills, Iain
Goodlad, Rt Hon Alastair Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)
Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles Mitchell, Sir David (NW Hants)
Gorman, Mrs Teresa Moate, Sir Roger
Gorst, Sir John Monro, Rt Hon Sir Hector
Grant Sir A (SW Cambs) Montgomery, Sir Fergus
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N) Needham, Rt Hon Richard
Greenway, John (Ryedale) Neubert, Sir Michael
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N) Newton, Rt Hon Tony
Grylls, Sir Michael Nicholls, Patrick
Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archibald Nicholson, David (Taunton)
Hamilton, Neil (Tatton) Norris, Steve
Hampson, Dr. Keith Oppenheim, Phillip
Hannan, Sir John Ottaway, Richard
Hargreaves, Andrew Page, Richard
Haselhurst, Sir Alan Paice, James
Hawkins, Nek Patnick, Sir Irvine
Hawksley, Warren Patten, Rt Hon John
Heald, Oliver Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth
Heathcoat-Amory, Rt Hon David Pickles, Eric
Hendry, Charles Porter, Barry (Wirral S)
Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael Porter, David (Waveney)
Hicks, Sir Robert Powell, William (Corby)
Higgins, Rt Hon Sir Terence Redwood, Rt Hon John
Hill, Sir James (Southampton Test) Renton, Rt Hon Tim
Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas (G'tham) Richards, Rod
Horam, John Riddick, Graham
Hordern, Rt Hon Sir Peter Robathan, Andrew
Howard, Rt Hon Michael Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn
Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford) Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S)
Howell, Sir Ralph (N Norfolk) Robinson, Mark (Somerton)
Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne) Thomason, Roy
Rowe, Andrew (Mid Kent) Thompson, Sir Donald (C'er V)
Rumbold, Rt Hon Dame Angela Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Sackville, Tom Thornton, Sir Malcolm
Sainsbury, Rt Hon Sir Timothy Townend, John (Bridlington)
Scott Ftt Hon Sir Nicholas Townsend, Cyril D (Bexl'yh'th)
Shaw, David (Dover) Tracey, Richard
Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey) Tredinnick, David
Shepherd, Sir Colin (Hereford) Trend, Michael
Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge) Trotter, Neville
Shersby, Sir Michael Twinn, Dr Ian
Sims, Sir Roger Vaughan, Sir Gerard
Skeet Sir Trevor Viggers, Peter
Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick) Waldegrave, Rt Hon William
Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) Walden, George
Soames, Nicholas Walker, Bill (N Tayside)
Speed, Sir Keith Waller, Gary
Spencer, Sir Derek Ward, John
Spicer, Sr Michael (S Worcs) Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Spink, Dr Robert Waterson, Nigel
Spring, Richard Watts, John
Sproat, Iain Wells, Bowen
Squire, Robin (Hornchurch) Whitney, Ray
Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John Whittingdale, John
Steen, Anthony Widdecombe, Ann
Stephen, Michael Wiggin, Sir Jerry
Stern, Michael Wilkinson, John
Stewart Allan Willetts, David
Streeter, Gary Winterton, Nicholas (Macc'f'ld)
Sumberg, David Wolfson, Mark
Sweeney, Walter Wood, Timothy
Sykes, John Yeo, Tim
Tapsell, Sir Peter Young, Rt Hon Sir George
Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Taylor, John M (Solihull) Tellers for the Noes:
Taylor, Sir Teddy (Southend, E) Dr. Liam Fox and Mr. Roger Knapman.
Temple-Morris, Peter

Question accordingly negatived. Order for Third Reading read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Bill be now read the Third time.—[Mr. Brandreth.]

7.15 pm
Mr. Raymond S. Robertson

The Bill is all about choice, quality and diversity—the themes at the heart of all that we do in Scottish education. Scottish young people deserve only the best. The Bill helps give them that, and I commend it to the House.

7.16 pm
Mrs. Liddell

The Bill is about anything but choice. It is about inflicting nursery vouchers on pre-five education in Scotland. It will not guarantee nursery places for children in Scotland who deserve the best nursery education. Nor will it guarantee quality. Indeed, there is a real danger that it will dilute the quality of nursery education in Scotland. I can make a commitment that, whenever Labour forms a Government, nursery vouchers will be abolished in Scotland. What is more, we will abandon the last-minute proposals for the compulsory testing of schools.

It is regrettable that the Secretary of State for Scotland has not seen fit to join us this evening when he is inflicting on Scotland yet more legislation that is out of tune with Scottish education and will do nothing to advance the cause of the children of Scotland.

7.17 pm
Mr. Wallace

Parts of the Bill are welcome. The creation of the Scottish Qualifications Authority, the method of dealing with placing requests and the provisions relating to school boards have commanded widespread support. However, my hon. Friends and I cannot support the Bill on Third Reading because it has at its heart the alien concept of nursery vouchers, which is not wanted by the vast majority of the Scottish people—and certainly not by Scottish Members of Parliament.

It is interesting that the Minister refused to give way to me during the debate on amendment No. 10, which stood in my name. It was an attempt to get quality control and a complaints mechanism into the vouchers scheme. The Minister described my amendment and those grouped with it as wrecking amendments. That shows what the Government are proposing. The Minister's suggestion that a proposal to ensure quality would wreck the nursery vouchers scheme tells us all that we need to know about that scheme. We shall, therefore, vote against the Bill.

7.18 pm
Mr. Welsh

I note a sudden interest—which was not apparent earlier—in the Scottish education system. We have also witnessed the unique spectacle of the Minister and the Opposition spokesperson rushing through their speeches so fast that they sounded like Pinky and Perky.

I shall not respond to the rather sheepish attempt at malice by the hon. Member for Monklands, East (Mrs. Liddell) except to say that the Labour party has been well and truly found out in the Bill. I should also tell the hon. Lady that a brass neck is no cover for a red face. The Bill fundamentally affects the Scottish education system. That is not a small matter; it is very important to Scotland and it is quite disgraceful that the Bill is being rushed through in such a fashion. If the Government have their way, the Bill will be of major importance in shaping and setting the future course of the education system in Scotland. It should have been scrutinised, questioned and opposed at every opportunity. Instead, for other reasons, the Conservative and Labour parties are rushing it through.

Nursery vouchers are simply socially divisive and inadequately funded in the Bill. They are objectively opposed by the vast majority of Scottish people, yet once again their views will be swept aside when we vote. Tory dogma is introducing an alien element into Scottish education, and market forces where they simply should not be. There is none of the parental choice of which the Minister has been boasting. When parents were consulted, they totally rejected the Government's proposals. The Minister's idea of consultation is to ask for views and then simply ignore them when they disagree with his own political bias. The Scottish National party view is quite clear: nursery education should slot in as a natural part of the Scottish national school system, thus guaranteeing quality, stability, standards and consistency of provision.

The education system is known and trusted by parents throughout Scotland, and we should be playing to its strengths by having a trained, graduate, professional work force and, most important, a broad educational provision that is open to all Scottish children. The Government are introducing some English ideas. I do not want the divided, fragmented English system ever to be visited on Scotland. What the Minister proposes goes against the grain of the Scottish people and the five-to-14 programme. The Bill is yet another example of rushed, botched legislation that puts extra burdens on the teaching profession. Teachers will cope with the measures, but they deserve better. The Bill should have been better thought out and better planned, with consultation.

There is a consensus on education in Scotland, but it is one of which the Government are not part. I greatly regret that they have not listened to Scottish people, Scottish parents or Scottish educationists. The Bill is quite simply a mistake.

Question put, That the Bill be now read the Third time:—

The House divided: Ayes 278, Noes 255.

Division No. 188] [7.21 pm
AYES
Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey) Conway, Derek
Aitken, Rt Hon Jonathan Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st)
Alexander, Richard Coombs, Simon (Swindon)
Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby) Cope, Rt Hon Sir John
Allason, Rupert (Torbay) Couchman, James
Amess, David Cran, James
Arbuthnot, James Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire)
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon)
Ashby, David Davies, Quentin (Stamford)
Atkins, Rt Hon Robert Davis, David (Boothferry)
Atkinson, David (Bour'mouth E) Day, Stephen
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham) Deva, Nirj Joseph
Baker, Rt Hon Kenneth (Mole V) Devlin, Tim
Baker, Nicholas (North Dorset) Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James
Banks, Robert (Harrogate) Dover, Den
Batiste, Spencer Duncan, Alan
Beggs, Roy Duncan Smith, Iain
Bellingham, Henry Dunn, Bob
Bendall, Vivian Durant Sir Anthony
Beresford, Sir Paul Dykes, Hugh
Biffen, Rt Hon John Elletson, Harold
Body, Sir Richard Emery, Rt Hon Sir Peter
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'ield)
Booth, Hartley Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley)
Boswell, Tim Evans, Roger (Monmouth)
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham) Evennett, David
Bottomley, Rt Hon Virginia Faber, David
Bowden, Sir Andrew Fabricant, Michael
Bowis, John Fenner, Dame Peggy
Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)
Brandreth, Gyles Fishburn, Dudley
Brazier, Julian Forsythe, Clifford (S Antrim)
Bright, Sir Graham Forth, Eric
Brown, M (Brigg & Cl'thorpes) Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman
Browning, Mrs Angela Freeman, Rt Hon Roger
Bruce, Ian (South Dorset) French, Douglas
Budgen, Nicholas Fry, Sir Peter
Burns, Simon Gale, Roger
Burt, Alistair Gallie, Phil
Butcher, John Gardiner, Sir George
Butler, Peter Garnier, Edward
Butterfill, John Gill, Christopher
Carlisle, John (Luton North) Gillan, Cheryl
Carlisle, Sir Kenneth (Lincoln) Goodlad, Rt Hon Alastair
Carrington, Matthew Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles
Carttiss, Michael Gorman, Mrs Teresa
Cash, William Gorst, Sir John
Channon, Rt Hon Paul Grant, Sir A (SW Cambs)
Chapman, Sir Sydney Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Churchill, Mr Greenway, John (Ryedale)
Clappison, James Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N)
Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford) Grylls, Sir Michael
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archibald
Coe, Sebastian Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)
Colvin, Michael Hampson, Dr Keith
Congdon, David Hannam, Sir John
Hargreaves, Andrew Oppenheim, Phillip
Haselhurst, Sir Alan Ottaway, Richard
Hawkins, Nick Page, Richard
Hawksley, Warren Paice, James
Heald, Oliver Patnick, Sir Irvine
Heathcoat-Amory, Rt Hon David Patten, Rt Hon John
Hendry, Charles Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth
Hicks, Sir Robert Pickles, Eric
Higgins, Rt Hon Sir Terence Porter, Barry (Wirral S)
Hill, Sir James (Southampton Test) Porter, David (Waveney)
Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas (G'tham) Powell, William (Corby)
Horam, John Redwood, Rt Hon John
Hordern, Rt Hon Sir Peter Renton, Rt Hon Tim
Howard, Rt Hon Michael Richards, Rod
Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford) Riddick, Graham
Howell, Sr Ralph (N Norfolk) Robathan, Andrew
Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W) Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn
Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W) Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S)
Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne) Robinson, Mark (Somerton)
Jack, Michael Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne)
Jackson, Robert (Wantage) Ross, William (E Londonderry)
Jenkin, Bernard Rowe, Andrew (Mid Kent)
Jessel, Toby Rumbold, Rt Hon Dame Angela
Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey Sackville, Tom
Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) Sainsbury, Rt Hon Sir Timothy
Jones, Robert B (W Hertfdshr) Scott, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
Jopling, Rt Hon Michael Shaw, David (Dover)
Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)
Key, Robert Shephard, Rt Hon Gillian
King, Rt Hon Tom Shepherd, Sir Colin (Hereford)
Kirkhope, Timothy Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)
Knapman, Roger Shersby, Sir Michael
Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash) Sims, Sir Roger
Knight Rt Hon Greg (Derby N) Skeet Sir Trevor
Knox, Sir David Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick)
Kynoch, George (Kincardine) Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)
Lait, Mrs Jacqui Soames, Nicholas
Lang, Rt Hon Ian Speed, Sir Keith
Lawrence, Sir Ivan Spencer, Sir Derek
Legg, Barry Spicer, Sir Michael (S Worcs)
Leigh, Edward Spink, Dr Robert
Lennox-Boyd, Sir Mark Spring, Richard
Lester, Sir James (Broxtowe) Sproat Iain
Lidington, David Squire, Robin (Hornchurch)
Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham) Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John
Lord, Michael Steen, Anthony
Luff, Peter Stephen, Michael
Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas Stern, Michael
MacKay, Andrew Stewart, Allan
Maclean, Rt Hon David Streeter, Gary
McLoughlin, Patrick Sumberg, David
McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick Sweeney, Walter
Madel, Sir David Sykes, John
Maitland, Lady Olga Tapsell, Sir Peter
Malone, Gerald Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Marland, Paul Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Marlow, Tony Taylor, Sir Teddy (Southend, E)
Marshall, John (Hendon S) Temple-Morris, Peter
Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel) Thomason, Roy
Martin, David (Portsmouth S) Thompson, Sir Donald (C'er V)
Mates, Michael Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Mawhinney, Rt Hon Dr Brian Thornton, Sir Malcolm
Mellor, Rt Hon David Townend, John (Bridlington)
Merchant Piers Townsend, Cyril D (Bexl'yh'th)
Mills, Iain Tracey, Richard
Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling) Tredinnick, David
Mitchell, Sir David (NW Hants) Trotter, Neville
Moate, Sir Roger Twinn, Dr Ian
Monro, Rt Hon Sir Hector Vaughan, Sir Gerard
Montgomery, Sir Fergus Viggers, Peter
Needham, Rt Hon Richard Waldegrave, Rt Hon William
Neubert, Sir Michael Walden, George
Newton, Rt Hon Tony Walker, Bill (N Tayside)
Nicholls, Patrick Waller, Gary
Nicholson, David (Taunton) Ward, John
Norris, Steve Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Waterson, Nigel Winterton, Nicholas (Macc'f'ld)
Watts, John Wolfson, Mark
Wells, Bowen Wood, Timothy
Whitney, Ray Yeo, Tim
Whittingdale, John Young, Rt Hon Sir George
Widdecombe, Ann
Wiggin, Sir Jerry Tellers for the Ayes:
Wilkinson, John Dr. Liam Fox and Mr. Michael Bates.
Willetts, David
NOES
Abbott, Ms Diane Donohoe, Brian H
Adams, Mrs Irene Dowd, Jim
Ainger, Nick Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth
Allen, Graham Eagle, Ms Angela
Alton, David Eastham, Ken
Anderson, Ms Janet (Ros'dale) Etherington, Bill
Ashton, Joe Evans, John (St Helens N)
Austin-Walker, John Ewing, Mrs Margaret
Banks, Tony (Newham NW) Fatchett, Derek
Barron, Kevin Faulds, Andrew
Battle, John Fisher, Mark
Bayley, Hugh Flynn, Paul
Beckett, Rt Hon Margaret Foster, Rt Hon Derek
Bell, Stuart Foster, Don (Bath)
Benn, Rt Hon Tony Foulkes, George
Bennett, Andrew F Fyfe, Maria
Benton, Joe Galbraith, Sam
Bermingham, Gerald Galloway, George
Berry, Roger Gapes, Mike
Betts, Clive Garrett, John
Blunkett, David George, Bruce
Bradley, Keith Gerrard, Neil
Bray, Dr Jeremy Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John
Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E) Godman, Dr Norman A
Brown, N (N'c'tle upon Tyne E) Godsiff, Roger
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon) Golding, Mrs Llin
Byers, Stephen Gordon, Mildred
Callaghan, Jim Graham, Thomas
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge) Grant, Bernie (Tottenham)
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE) Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V) Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Campbell-Savours, D N Grocott, Bruce
Canavan, Dennis Gunnell, John
Cann, Jamie Hain, Peter
Carlile, Alexander (Montgomery) Hall, Mike
Chidgey, David Hanson, David
Chisholm, Malcolm Hardy, Peter
Clapham, Michael Harvey, Nick
Clark, Dr David (South Shields) Heppell, John
Clarke, Eric (Midlothian) Hill, Keith (Streatham)
Clarke, Tom (Monklands W) Hinchliffe, David
Clelland, David Hodge, Margaret
Clwyd, Mrs Ann Hoey, Kate
Coffey, Ann Hogg, Norman (Cumbernauld)
Connarty, Michael Home Robertson, John
Cook, Frank (Stockton N) Hood, Jimmy
Corbett, Robin Hoon, Geoffrey
Corbyn, Jeremy Howarth, George (Knowsley North)
Corston, Jean Howells, Dr Kim (Pontypridd)
Cousins, Jim Hoyle, Doug
Cox, Tom Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Cunliffe, Lawrence Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)
Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE) Hughes, Roy (Newport E)
Cunningham, Roseanna Hughes, Simon (Southwark)
Dafis, Cynog Hutton, John
Dalyell, Tam Illsley, Eric
Darling, Alistair Ingram, Adam
Davidson, Ian Jackson, Glenda (H'stead)
Davies, Chris (L'Boro & S'worth) Jackson, Helen (Shef'ld, H)
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli) Jamieson, David
Davies, Ron (Caerphilly) Janner, Greville
Denham, John Jenkins, Brian (SE Staff)
Dewar, Donald Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)
Dixon, Don Jones, Lynne (B'ham S O)
Dobson, Frank Jones, Martyn (Clwyd, SW)
Jowell, Tessa Primarolo, Dawn
Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald Purchase, Ken
Keen, Alan Quin, Ms Joyce
Kennedy, Jane (L'pool Br'dg'n) Radice, Giles
Khabra, Piara S Randall, Stuart
Kilfoyle, Peter Raynsford, Nick
Kirkwood, Archy Reid, Dr John
Lewis, Terry Rendel, David
Liddell, Mrs Helen Robertson, George (Hamilton)
Litherland, Robert Robinson, Geoffrey (Co'try NW)
Livingstone, Ken Roche, Mrs Barbara
Lloyd, Tony (Stretford) Rooker, Jeff
Llwyd, Elfyn Rooney, Terry
Loyden, Eddie Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Lynne, Ms Liz Rowlands, Ted
McAllion, John Salmond, Alex
McAvoy, Thomas Sedgemore, Brian
McCartney, Ian Sheerman, Barry
Macdonald, Calum Shore, Rt Hon Peter
McFall, John Simpson, Alan
McKelvey, William Skinner, Dennis
Mackinlay, Andrew Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)
McLeish, Henry Smith, Chris (Isl'ton S & F'sbury)
Maclennan, Robert Snape, Peter
McNamara, Kevin Soley, Clive
MacShane, Denis Spearing, Nigel
McWilliam, John Spellar, John
Madden, Max Squire, Rachel (Dunfermline W)
Maddock, Diana Steel, Rt Hon Sir David
Mahon, Alice Steinberg, Gerry
Mandelson, Peter Stevenson, George
Marek, Dr John Stott, Roger
Martlew, Eric Strang, Dr. Gavin
Meacher, Michael Straw, Jack
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Meale, Alan Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)
Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley) Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll & Bute) Thompson, Jack (Wansbeck)
Milburn, Alan Timms, Stephen
Miller, Andrew Tipping, Paddy
Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby) Touhig, Don
Moonie, Dr Lewis Trickett Jon
Morgan, Rhodri Turner, Dennis
Morley, Elliot Tyler, Paul
Morris, Rt Hon Alfred (Wy'nshawe) Vaz, Keith
Morris, Estelle (B'ham Yardley) Walker, Rt Hon Sir Harold
Morris, Rt Hon John (Aberavon) Wallace, James
Mudie, George Walley, Joan
Mullin, Chris Wardell, Gareth (Gower)
Murphy, Paul Wareing, Robert N
Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon Watson, Mike
O'Brien, William (Normanton) Welsh, Andrew
O'Hara, Edward Wicks, Malcolm
Olner, Bill Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Sw'n W)
O'Neill, Martin Wilson, Brian
Orme, Rt Hon Stanley Winnick, David
Parry, Robert Wise, Audrey
Pearson, Ian Worthington, Tony
Pendry, Tom Wray, Jimmy
Pickthall, Colin Wright, Dr Tony
Pike, Peter L Young, David (Bolton SE)
Pope, Greg
Powell, Sir Ray (Ogmore) Tellers for the Noes:
Prentice, Bridget (Lew'm E) Mr. John Cummings and Mr. Robert Ainsworth.
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)

Question accordingly agreed to.

Bill read the Third time, and passed, with amendments.