HC Deb 08 July 1996 vol 281 cc99-107
Mr. Robert B. Jones

I beg to move amendment No. 100, in page 63, line 3, leave out 'which has the effect of'. The purpose of the amendment is to ensure that the prohibition on the pay-when-paid system operates without disrupting the principal payment mechanisms used in the construction industry, of which the most important is certification.

The concern that Sir Michael Latham was asked to address was where the payment chain was becoming so extended that small construction companies at the bottom of the chain were having to wait months for their money. They were doing so because of the pay-when-paid system, whereby payments made by a main contractor would await payment to it by its client, and the subcontractors would, in turn, not pay the next contractor in the chain until they had received payment—and so on down the contractual hierarchy. At each stage, payment had to arrive with the payer before he considered payment to the payee—possibly up to 30 days later.

That was the abuse that Sir Michael Latham addressed. Effectively, it was about each contractor in the chain holding on to cash for as long as possible to receive the benefit of interest payments or to put the money to use elsewhere before making payments for work done. The intention of clause 113 is to prevent contractors from pursuing this practice. That is what the industry agreed to under the Latham process—specifically, clients, main contractors and subcontractors—and that is what the Government are now seeking to deliver.

The amendment accepted by the Committee significantly changes the effect of the clause. It seeks to prevent any linkage between a subcontract and a main contract, which could have an impact on payment. That represents a considerable moving of the goalposts and significantly undermines the agreed industry position.

The process of construction of a major project depends on a series of interlocking contracts. Ascertaining what payment becomes due is not as simple as the system to which we are all accustomed whereby payment is exchanged for goods received. Construction is a process. Sums due may be established by a number of mechanisms. For example, an architect or engineer may establish what work has been properly executed by the main contractor and his subcontractors and issue a certificate on the main contract, which triggers payment. That certification process not only serves to show what is due to the main contractor but will be the basis of valuation of the work done, and therefore the sums due to the subcontractors as well. This is the system that is regularly used in standard construction contracts.

There are other ways of establishing the need for payment. Sir Michael Latham recommended the milestone system, whereby payment is triggered when a professional adviser to a client reports that the work done by a contractor and his subcontractors passes an agreed milestone or benchmark.

I draw out two points from those examples: first, that the certification or assessment procedure is central to the workings of many construction contracts and, secondly, that the work assessed under the main contract comprises not only that done by the main contractor and his work force, but that done by the subcontractors. The assessment process on the main contract values the package as a whole.

The wording of clause 113 would disable the certification system. That would have very serious implications for construction contracts. It would invalidate one of the regularly used forms of subcontract—the JCT nominated form—that subcontractors have strongly advocated. I also want to make it completely clear that it is outside the industry consensus. It is not in keeping with what Latham recommended, and I am not even aware that it has ever been discussed by the industry. That is why I have proposed amendment No. 100 to restore clause 113 to its original purpose.

Mr. Raynsford

This subject was debated at length in Committee. Some progress has been made and the Government are proposing a move that, in a number of respects, is retrograde.

The clause as originally drafted dealt with contracts or terms that purported to make payment dependent on third-party action. That wording was clearly unsatisfactory and was amended in Committee. The clause now refers to provisions that have the "effect of making payment" dependent on a third party.

That clearly is the purpose of the move to outlaw pay-when-paid clauses, which have been a huge problem to subcontractors and which have led to unacceptable practices. The move to get rid of pay-when-paid clauses was very much part of the Latham committee's recommendations.

I hear what the Minister says about certification. He will know that, in Committee, with that point precisely in mind, we moved an amendment to ensure that nothing would cut across the normal procedures for certification. The Minister assured us that that was not necessary, so the amendment was not incorporated in the Bill. Now he says that the provision in the Bill will be hugely damaging and will cut across certification procedures.

I am not convinced, but if the Minister is right he has a simple remedy to hand: to advise his colleagues in another place to accept the amendment that we tabled in Committee. That would make it clear that the outlawing of pay-when-paid provisions should not cut across certification procedures. The Minister, meanwhile, proposes severely to damage the effectiveness of the legislation when it comes to outlawing pay-when-paid provisions. That will be regarded with horror by most of the subcontractors, who will see the door being left open, once again, to unscrupulous contractors so to manipulate arrangements as to deny payments—on the tenuous basis of pay-when-paid clauses.

This is a very serious clause. I hope that the Minister will think again. If he does not, I trust that hon. Members will vote against the Government amendment.

8 pm

Mr. Thurnham

I am disappointed with the Government amendment. I felt that the Committee was right to change the original shape of the clause, which included the words "purporting to make payment". That was changed to which has the effect of making payment". Now, the Government want to remove the words which has the effect of". There seems to be a great deal of heat over five words, but they go to the heart of the Bill. We are discussing where the balance of risk should lie; whether with the small subcontractors, who have to pay for wages and materials irrespective of whether they receive payment from contractors above them in the chain, or whether with the larger contractors.

I am sorry that the Government seem to have moved in favour of the larger contractors. The smaller ones are the weaker partners to the contract, so if the balance is to be tipped one way or the other, it should be towards the smaller subcontractors. The Minister has had the right balance in mind throughout the Bill's proceedings; that is what has made it such an excellent Bill. I am sorry that he has been unable to maintain the balance at this point.

The constructors' liaison group has put out a parliamentary briefing headed "Just Five Words", because it feels so strongly about the issue. The Minister says that the Committee amendment undermines the agreed industry position, but I find that difficult to follow. Sir Michael Latham's report, "Constructing the Team", states in recommendation 8.10: Clauses with the effect of introducing pay-when-paid conditions should be specifically declared unfair and invalid". That is exactly the point. It is why I feel so strongly that the words "the effect of should be retained.

Since the publication of "Constructing the Team", the Government have continually stressed the necessity of prohibiting the pernicious pay-when-paid tactics adopted by many main contractors. The whole process of reforming payment procedures depends on a satisfactory resolution of such tactics.

Ministers have consistently supported the line that pay-when-paid tactics must be ended. That was restated by the Minister in the Committee debates. It is therefore strange to find that the Government amendment would weaken the pay-when-paid prohibition. In the DTI publication, "Your Business Matters", the Government's policy on the banning of pay-when-paid clauses in construction contracts is once again restated, and it is clearly a cornerstone of Government policy. Such clauses transfer the risk of funding requirements for construction operations to the lowest level of construction contracts—the subcontractors. They are exposed to the greatest financial risk, through late or non-payment or insolvency. Incidentally, the insolvency waiver has already been agreed. They also make the greatest contribution to the funding capital required by a project.

The effect is that smaller companies prop up the larger companies higher up the contractual chain. Clients are required to pay the costs of such bottom-up funding through increased tender prices. It is by amending these processes that the savings sought in "Constructing the Team" will be achieved.

The amendment seeks to delete the five words which have the effect of', but that leaves the redrafted clause restrictive and limited to payment provisions only. It also makes it a simple matter for a determined main contractor to bypass the provisions. The Government amendment weakens the Bill and allows back-door tactics to defeat the objective of the clause; it also allows pay-when-paid provisions to be introduced through procedural links to head contracts.

The Government amendment amounts to the pay-when-paid system under another guise. It would allow the creation of a payment dependence at one level on an event or procedure occurring at another level in the contractual chain. As such, it interferes with privity of contract and creates an unnecessary linkage, to the disadvantage of those lower in the contractual chain.

Each construction contract needs to have a stand-alone payment procedure which is in no way linked with or dependent on activities occurring, or not occurring, in contracts above them. Any form of linkage to events in other contracts is a back-door pay-when-paid system. What has been allowed in the case of insolvency goes far enough, I believe, in terms of transferring risk.

What are the Government's views on how the clause as drafted affects certification? The purpose of a certificate at main contract level is to indicate the amount due under that contract. When payment is due is a matter for the adequate mechanism, and these issues should not become linked or confused. Clause 113 does not inhibit or contradict the process of third-party certification in main or nominated contracts.

Payment certificates issued under the industry standard contract are not linked to domestic subcontract payment conditions regarding the amount or timing of payments, and payment procedures are unlinked between contracts. The certification process in relation to payments is concerned with establishing the amount that is due. It operates on main contracts and only a small number of subcontracts. Establishing when payments are due has to be satisfied through the adequate mechanism. Nothing in the current draft of clause 113 affects the ability of the certifying process to work under existing contracts.

It is not acceptable to dilute such a key provision. Certification relates to one commercial transaction, and the procedure should not apply down the contractual chain. At subcontract level, a totally different commercial transaction exists. The standard form of contract used by the industry confirms that normal practice is not to have any such linkages between contracts; and payment procedures at different contracting levels operate on totally separate payment cycles.

The existing payment procedures at domestic subcontract level preserve the privity of contract arrangements, and clause 113 reinforces that. The Government amendment would interfere with the process and would offer the potential to interfere with established practice. The Government should therefore withdraw the amendment. If they persist with it and it is agreed to, I hope that the measure will be given a thorough examination in the other place.

Mr. Robert B. Jones

There is no question but that we want pay-when-paid clauses banned, and we have already tilted the balance in favour of smaller companies—that is precisely where the shoe pinches, as my hon. Friend says. It was no part of Sir Michael Latham's proposals, or of the Government's, to outlaw certification. That would be absurd.

Mr. Patrick Nicholls (Teignbridge)


Mr. Jones

I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Teignbridge (Mr. Nicholls) has been particularly concerned about how the scheme payment procedures might work out in practice. They are what would be required to operate if a contractual payment mechanism was inadequate. Details are a matter for consultation once the Bill has received Royal Assent, but my hon. Friend has my complete assurance that we will not allow scheme procedures to be vulnerable to the sort of abuse that he has described.

Mr. Nicholls

If the certification procedure were used as a way of avoiding what the Government intend, would the adjudicator be able to disapply the clause?

Mr. Jones

The adjudicator would have to judge whether there was any relevant link between the two. If the certification procedure allowed money not to be paid because work had not been done, and the main contractor then blamed the subcontractor, the latter would be able to go to the adjudicator if he did not think that that was fair.

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The House divided: Ayes 274, Noes 246.

Division No. 176] [8.09 pm
Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey) Brown, M (Brigg & Cl'thorpes)
Aitken, Rt Hon Jonathan Browning, Mrs Angela
Alexander, Richard Bruce, Ian (South Dorset)
Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby) Budgen, Nicholas
Allason, Rupert (Torbay) Burns, Simon
Amess, David Burt, Alistair
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) Butler, Peter
Atkins, Rt Hon Robert Butterfill, John
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham) Carlisle, John (Luton North)
Baker, Rt Hon Kenneth (Mole V) Carlisle, Sir Kenneth (Lincoln)
Baker, Nicholas (North Dorset) Carrington, Matthew
Baldry, Tony Carttiss, Michael
Banks, Matthew (Southport) Cash, William
Banks, Robert (Harrogate) Channon, Rt Hon Paul
Bates, Michael Chapman, Sir Sydney
Batiste, Spencer Churchill, Mr
Bellingham, Henry Clappison, James
Bendall, Vivian Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)
Beresford, Sir Paul Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Biffen, Rt Hon John Coe, Sebastian
Body, Sir Richard Colvin, Michael
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas Congdon, David
Booth, Hartley Conway, Derek
Boswell, Tim Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st)
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham) Coombs, Simon (Swindon)
Bottomley, Rt Hon Virginia Cope, Rt Hon Sir John
Bowden, Sir Andrew Cormack, Sir Patrick
Bowis, John Couchman, James
Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes Cran, James
Brandreth, Gyles Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire)
Brazier, Julian Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon)
Bright, Sir Graham Davies, Quentin (Stamford)
Brooke, Rt Hon Peter Day, Stephen
Deva, Nirj Joseph Knight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'st'n)
Devlin, Tim Kynoch, George (Kincardine)
Dorrell, Rt Hon Stephen Laft, Mrs Jacqui
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James Lang, Rt Hon Ian
Dover, Den Lawrence, Sir Ivan
Duncan, Alan Legg, Barry
Duncan Smith, Iain Leigh, Edward
Dunn, Bob Lennox-Boyd, Sir Mark
Dykes, Hugh Lester, Sir James (Broxtowe)
Eggar, Rt Hon Tim Lidington, David
Elletson, Harold Lilley, Rt Hon Peter
Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield) Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)
Evans, Jonathan (Brecon) Lord, Michael
Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley) Luff, Peter
Evans, Roger (Monmouth) Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
Evennett, David MacGregor, Rt Hon John
Faber, David MacKay, Andrew
Fabricant, Michael Maclean, Rt Hon David
Fenner, Dame Peggy McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick
Field, Barry (Isle of Wight) Madel, Sir David
Fishburn, Dudley Maitland, Lady Olga
Forth, Eric Malone, Gerald
Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman Mans, Keith
Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring) Marland, Paul
Freeman, Rt Hon Roger Marlow, Tony
French, Douglas Marshall, John (Hendon S)
Gale, Roger Martin, David (Portsmouth S)
Gallie, Phil Mates, Michael
Gardiner, Sir George Mawhinney, Rt Hon Dr Brian
Garnier, Edward Merchant, Piers
Gill, Christopher Mills, Iain
Gillan, Cheryl Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)
Goodlad, Rt Hon Alastair Mitchell, Sir David (NW Hants)
Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles Moate, Sir Roger
Gorman, Mrs Teresa Molyneaux, Rt Hon Sir James
Gorst, Sir John Monro, Rt Hon Sir Hector
Grant, Sir A (SW Cambs) Montgomery, Sir Fergus
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N) Moss, Malcolm
Greenway, John (Ryedale) Needham, Rt Hon Richard
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N) Neubert, Sir Michael
Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn Newton, Rt Hon Tony
Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archibald Nicholls, Patrick
Hamilton, Neil (Tatton) Nicholson, David (Taunton)
Hampson, Dr Keith Norris, Steve
Hannam, Sir John Oppenheim, Phillip
Hargreaves, Andrew Ottaway, Richard
Haselhurst, Sir Alan Page, Richard
Hawkins, Nick Paice, James
Hawksley, Warren Patnick, Sir Irvine
Hayes, Jerry Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Heald, Oliver Pawsey, James
Heathcoat-Amory, Rt Hon David Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth
Hendry, Charles Pickles, Eric
Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael Porter, Barry (Wirral S)
Higgins, Rt Hon Sir Terence Porter, David (Waveney)
Hill, Sir James (Southampton Test) Portillo, Rt Hon Michael
Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas (G'tham) Powell, William (Corby)
Horam, John Rathbone, Tim
Howard, Rt Hon Michael Renton, Rt Hon Tim
Howell, Sir Ralph (N Norfolk) Richards, Rod
Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W) Riddick, Graham
Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W) Rifkind, Rt Hon Malcolm
Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne) Robathan, Andrew
Hunter, Andrew Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn
Jack, Michael Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S)
Jackson, Robert (Wantage) Robinson, Mark (Somerton)
Jenkin, Bernard Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne)
Jessel, Toby Rowe, Andrew (Mid Kent)
Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) Rumbold, Rt Hon Dame Angela
Jones, Robert B (W Hertfdshr) Scott, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine Shaw, David (Dover)
Key, Robert Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)
King, Fit Hon Tom Shephard, Rt Hon Gillian
Kirkhope, Timothy Shepherd, Sir Colin (Hereford)
Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash) Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)
Knight, Rt Hon Greg (Derby N) Shersby, Sir Michael
Sims, Sir Roger Tredinnick, David
Skeet, Sir Trevor Trend, Michael
Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) Trotter, Neville
Speed, Sir Keith Twinn, Dr Ian
Spencer, Sir Derek Vaughan, Sir Gerard
Spicer, Sir Michael (S Worcs) Viggers, Peter
Spink, Dr Robert Waldegrave, Rt Hon William
Spring, Richard Walden, George
Sproat, Iain Walker, Bill (N Tayside)
Squire, Robin (Hornchurch) Waller, Gary
Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John Ward, John
Steen, Anthony Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Stephen, Michael Waterson, Nigel
Stern, Michael Watts, John
Stewart, Allan Wells, Bowen
Streeter, Gary Whitney, Ray
Sumberg, David Whittingdale, John
Sweeney, Walter Widdecombe, Ann
Sykes, John Wiggin, Sir Jerry
Tapsell, Sir Peter Wilkinson, John
Taylor, Ian (Esher) Willetts, David
Taylor, John M (Solihull) Wilshire, David
Taylor, Sir Teddy (Southend, E) Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)
Temple-Morris, Peter Wolfson, Mark
Thomason, Roy Wood, Timothy
Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N) Young, Rt Hon Sir George
Thornton, Sir Malcolm
Townend, John (Bridlington) Tellers for the Ayes:
Townsend, Cyril D (Bexl'yh'th) Mr. Roger Knapman and
Tracey, Richard Mr. Patrick McLoughlin.
Abbott, Ms Diane Clelland, David
Adams, Mrs Irene Clwyd, Mrs Ann
Ainger, Nick Coffey, Ann
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE) Cohen, Harry
Allen, Graham Connarty, Michael
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E) Cook, Robin (Livingston)
Anderson, Ms Janet (Ros'dale) Corston, Jean
Ashton, Joe Cousins, Jim
Austin-Walker, John Cummings, John
Banks, Tony (Newham NW) Cunliffe, Lawrence
Barron, Kevin Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE)
Battle, John Dalyell, Tam
Bayley, Hugh Darling, Alistair
Beckett, Rt Hon Margaret Davidson, Ian
Beith, Rt Hon A J Davies, Chris (L'Boro & S'worth)
Bell, Stuart Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'dge H'I)
Bennett, Andrew F Denham, John
Benton, Joe Dewar, Donald
Bermingham, Gerald Dixon, Don
Berry, Roger Dobson, Frank
Betts, Clive Donohoe, Brian H
Blunkett, David Dowd, Jim
Boateng, Paul Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth
Bradley, Keith Eagle, Ms Angela
Bray, Dr Jeremy Eastham, Ken
Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E) Etherington, Bill
Brown, N (N'c'tle upon Tyne E) Evans, John (St Helens N)
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon) Fatchett, Derek
Byers, Stephen Faulds, Andrew
Caborn, Richard Fisher, Mark
Callaghan, Jim Flynn, Paul
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge) Foster, Rt Hon Derek
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE) Foster, Don (Bath)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V) Foulkes, George
Campbell-Savours, D N Fraser, John
Canavan, Dennis Fyfe, Maria
Cann, Jamie Galloway, George
Chidgey, David Gapes, Mike
Chisholm, Malcolm Garrett, John
Church, Judith Gerrard, Neil
Clapham, Michael Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John
Clark, Dr David (South Shields) Godman, Dr Norman A
Clarke, Eric (Midlothian) Godsiff, Roger
Clarke, Tom (Monklands W) Golding, Mrs Llin
Gordon, Mildred Miller, Andrew
Graham, Thomas Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend) Moonie, Dr Lewis
Grocott, Bruce Morgan, Rhodri
Gunnell, John Morley, Elliot
Hall, Mike Morris, Rt Hon Alfred (Wy'nshawe)
Hanson, David Morris, Estelle (B'ham Yardley)
Harman, Ms Harriet Morris, Rt Hon John (Aberavon)
Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy Mowlam, Marjorie
Heppell, John Mudie, George
Hill, Keith (Streatham) Mullin, Chris
Hinchliffe, David Murphy, Paul
Hodge, Margaret Nicholson, Emma (Devon West)
Hoey, Kate Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon
Hogg, Norman (Cumbernauld) O'Brien, William (Normanton)
Home Robertson, John O'Hara, Edward
Hood, Jimmy Olner, Bill
Hoon, Geoffrey O'Neill, Martin
Howarth, Alan (Strat'rd-on-A) Orme, Rt Hon Stanley
Howarth, George (Knowsley North) Parry, Robert
Howells, Dr Kim (Pontypridd) Pearson, Ian
Hoyle, Doug Pendry, Tom
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N) Pickthall, Colin
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) Pike, Peter L
Hughes, Roy (Newport E) Pope, Greg
Hughes, Simon (Southward) Powell, Sir Ray (Ogmore)
Hutton, John Prentice, Bridget (Lew'm E)
Illsley, Eric Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Ingram, Adam Prescott, Rt Hon John
Jackson, Glenda (H'stead) Primarolo, Dawn
Jackson, Helen (Shef'ld, H) Purchase, Ken
Jamieson, David Quin, Ms Joyce
Janner, Greville Randall, Stuart
Jenkins, Brian (SE Staff) Raynsford, Nick
Jones, Ieuan Wyn (Ynys Môn) Reid, Dr John
Jones, Lynne (B'ham S O) Rendel, David
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd, SW) Robertson, George (Hamilton)
Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham) Robinson, Geoffrey (Co'try NW)
Jowell, Tessa Roche, Mrs Barbara
Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald Rogers, Allan
Keen, Alan Rooker, Jeff
Kennedy, Charles (Ross,C&S) Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Kennedy, Jane (L'pool Br'dg'n) Rowlands, Ted
Khabra, Piara S Sedgemore, Brian
Kilfoyle, Peter Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert
Kirkwood, Archy Shore, Rt Hon Peter
Lewis, Terry Short, Clare
Liddell, Mrs Helen Skinner, Dennis
Litherland, Robert Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)
Livingstone, Ken Smith, Chris (Isl'ton S & F'sbury)
Llwyd, Elfyn Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Loyden, Eddie Soley, Clive
Lynne, Ms Liz Spearing, Nigel
McAllion, John Spellar, John
McAvoy, Thomas Squire, Rachel (Dunfermline W)
McCartney, Ian Steinberg, Gerry
Macdonald, Calum Stevenson, George
McKelvey, William Stott, Roger
Mackinlay, Andrew Strang, Dr. Gavin
McLeish, Henry Sutcliffe, Gerry
McMaster, Gordon Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)
McNamara, Kevin Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
MacShane, Denis Thurnham, Peter
McWilliam, John Timms, Stephen
Madden, Max Tipping, Paddy
Maddock, Diana Touhig, Don
Mahon, Alice Trickett, Jon
Mandelson, Peter Turner, Dennis
Marek, Dr John Vaz, Keith
Marshall, David (Shettleston) Walker, Rt Hon Sir Harold
Martin, Michael J (Springburn) Walley, Joan
Meacher, Michael Wareing, Robert N
Meale, Alan Watson, Mike
Michael, Alun Wicks, Malcolm
Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley) Wigley, Dafydd
Milburn, Alan Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Sw'n W)
Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen) Young, David (Bolton SE)
Winnick, David
Wise, Audrey Tellers for the Noes:
Wray, Jimmy Mr. Peter Hain and
Wright, Dr Tony Mr. Jon Owen Jones.

Question accordingly agreed to.

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