§ Mr. Bryan Davies (Oldham, Central and Royton)I beg to move amendment No. 1, in page 1, line 13, at end add—
'(1B) The Secretary of State shall, as soon as any arrangements under subsection (1A) above have been concluded, lay before each House of Parliament a statement containing the names of any person with whom those arrangements have been concluded and the terms of the arrangements, including the amount of subsidy to be paid to each such person under that subsection.'.821 The amendment seeks to establish the absolutely bare minimum of parliamentary scrutiny of the Government's measures. As my hon. Friends have repeatedly stressed, the Bill is skeletal, an enabling measure. It contains barely any detail of the new private sector student loans that will become operative. Parliament is being asked to give blanket authority to the Government to negotiate with the private sector as they see fit. The Minister wants authority for public expenditure subsidies of whatever order he considers necessary to persuade the banks and building societies to participate in the scheme.We know from experience how liberal the Government can be with public money when it is used as a sweetener to ensure that their privatisation measures do not bite the dust. For example, the additional cost to the taxpayer of a privatised railway system will be £850 million a year, which is more than £2 million a day. The Government cannot even be trusted with taxpayers' money in connection with overseas projects and Governments. We all recall Pergau dam and it has not gone unnoticed that the chief whistleblower in that affair, the former permanent secretary to the Department for Education and Employment, is no longer in the Government's employ.
In deliberations in Standing Committee, the Minister repeatedly rejected arguments that would have allowed the House to examine the arrangements that he finally negotiates. He did that on the ground that Parliament cannot be involved in the negotiation of commercial contracts. The amendment simply asks the Minister to report in a full statement to the House the outcome of his negotiations—the details of the contracts when they have been concluded. That is often the practice in the House when significant commercial contracts involving public money are awarded. Sometimes even the Prime Minister chooses to give the House advance notice of a decision, as he helpfully did yesterday over Land Rover ambulances.
As the Bill stands, it will offer no opportunity for Parliament to question the Minister on his arrangements. That surely undermines the rights of the House. How can the Executive object to making a proper statement to the House on a new set of contracts of this kind? Should we simply accept that we have to read a press release on the outcome of the Minister's negotiations, or a written answer, or should we have to go to the Library to look at a document that the Minister has kindly put there?
Let us not forget the magnitude of the issue that we are considering. Outstanding student loans, that is, principal and interest, will total some £5 billion by the end of the decade. We are not debating a small matter: these are substantial commitments of resources. Public subsidies to the private sector will be very significant. As the Minister cannot tell us the amount of those subsidies, he should surely accept the responsibility of presenting a full statement to the House when he is in a position to do that.
The House has a right to expect answers to a number of key questions. What level of subsidy will be paid to private sector lenders? How much will private sector lenders obtain for administration costs, for interest rate subsidy and for default on loans? All those factors are significant in the current public sector scheme under the Student Loans Company. This is the crux of the matter. Huge subsidies will be needed if the banks and building 822 societies are ever likely to get involved. Anyone who doubts that should consider the pronounced reluctance of financial institutions at this time.
The Minister wants to walk off with a blank cheque and does not want to account for how he spends it. That is scarcely standard commercial practice, unless one works for a financial institution such as Barings bank. Of course the House is aware of the close relationship between the Conservative party and Barings bank, which gave the party more than £600,000 between 1979 and 1993. Nick Leeson caused the ruin of one of the most reputable institutions in the City at the same time as he caused great damage to the cash flow of one of the least reputable institutions in politics—the Conservative party.
Unlike secret Conservative party accounts, the subsidies to the banks and building societies should be open to public and parliamentary scrutiny as soon as possible. For instance, we require an answer to the question whether the subsidies will include the start-up costs of new information technology systems for the banks and building societies. Considerable importance has been attached to that issue. Scratching for an explanation in Committee as to why the timetable for the Bill was proving so totally unrealistic, the Minister stated that one of the crucial factors was the problem of the need for new technology systems to handle student accounts.
Why on earth did it take the Minister until after the Bill had been presented to discover those matters? Why did he not carry out some serious investigations and make inquiries before it was presented? It is worth remembering that the Student Loans Company, for which the Minister bears some responsibility, has invested some £20 million in computer operating systems since 1990.
When asked in Committee by my hon. Friend the Member for Wallsend (Mr. Byers) whether there would be a disclosure of the amount of public money that went towards the start-up costs in the private sector, the Minister said that he did not think that he could be specific at that stage, for the obvious reason that the detailed nature of the contractual arrangements had not yet been finalised. The Minister insists that we are obliged to accept that argument for the time being. But surely that question must be answered for Parliament to be satisfied with the Bill's provisions. The amendment gives the Minister the opportunity to assure the House that he will do that.
What about the public sector borrowing requirement effects of the scheme? When do Ministers expect the combined public and private sector loans scheme to secure public expenditure savings? When can we expect revised forecasts for the performance of the student loans scheme in its dual provision? What will be the exact terms and conditions attaching to student loans? How will repayment terms vary under the new scheme, and what repayment terms will be offered to students by different private sector providers? The Minister was exceedingly coy in Committee about even the basic principles upon which he was working when we questioned him on those matters.
Will the chosen private sector lenders offer sufficient geographical coverage in the United Kingdom? What guarantees do we have to ensure that all students in different localities throughout the country will be served by the new arrangements? Hon. Members will surely regard all that information as vital, but none of it is in 823 front of the House of Commons in definitive form. Unless the Minister can tell us otherwise, a revised tender document has not even been made available.
9 pm
Nor, significantly, do we know, as my hon. Friend the Member for Wallsend said, how the Minister is making up the £100 million shortfall caused by the delayed introduction of his scheme. That figure will be of the greatest interest to all people in higher education who are wrestling with the savage implications of the 7 per cent. cut in recurrent and capital funding for next year. Is the higher education sector expected to bridge that shortfall with a further squeeze on its unit of resource? If so, that is to pile Pelion on Ossa. The Minister might have to bear some serious consequences should he attempt to go down that road.
Parliament cannot have any confidence in the new scheme when it is to be delayed for one year. The measure is short-sighted and ill considered. Surely, the Government have a duty to put flesh on the bare bones that they have offered to the House. That is why the amendment seeks a full statement from the Minister to the House at the appropriate time at the conclusion of his negotiations.
§ Mr. ForthThe hon. Member for Oldham, Central and Royton (Mr. Davies) makes a passionate request, but yet again, he is going not a little over the top. I have told him and the Committee—and I repeat to the House—that it is of course our intention that, when the Government finalise contractual arrangements with private lenders to give effect to the Bill's aims, I shall notify the House of those lenders. That is not a problem.
I have also said that details of public expenditure and private sector loans will be set out annually in the appropriation accounts and in the Department's annual report, and that all the normal arrangements of the National Audit Office and the other panoply of checks will apply in this case. That much is clear. When, however, the hon. Gentleman expects, as he does in the amendment, that the terms of the arrangements and details of contracts concluded—in this case, between the Government and private lenders—should be in the public domain, I cannot agree with him.
In Committee, I asked the hon. Gentleman whether he was giving an undertaking that any future Labour Government, in their dealings with the private sector across government, would publish in every case all the contracts in detail and all the contractual arrangements made between that Government and a private sector provider of goods or services. He did not give me an answer then and I suspect that he is not going to give me an answer now. If the amendment is a new enunciation of the doctrine that would form the basis of the relationship between thrusting, entrepreneurial new Labour and the private sector, which has been wooed by the hon. Gentleman's colleagues, I would be surprised, although many of my colleagues would not be.
This issue goes to the heart of the relationship between the Government of the day and the private sector. The relationship between this Government and the private sector is well established and well understood, but it is in the new clauses and amendments to this Bill of all Bills that we get a glimpse of the reality of Labour Members' attitude to the private sector, and of what their approach to that sector would be, were they ever to be in government.
824 I do not agree with the amendment because it takes us into territory that Conservative Members find unacceptable. It would undermine and prejudice the operation of the arrangements between the Government and the private sector. I urge to House to reject the amendment.
§ Question put, That the amendment be made:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 247, Noes 278.
827| Division No. 27] | [9.04 pm |
| AYES | |
| Abbott Ms Diane | Davies, Ron (Caerphilly) |
| Adams, Mrs Irene | Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'dge H'l) |
| Ainger, Nick | Denham, John |
| Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE) | Dewar, Donald |
| Alton, David | Dixon, Don |
| Anderson, Donald (Swansea E) | Donohoe, Brian H |
| Anderson, Ms Janet (Ros'dale) | Dowd, Jim |
| Armstrong, Hilary | Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth |
| Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy | Eagle, Ms Angela |
| Ashton, Joe | Eastham, Ken |
| Austin-Walker, John | Etherington, Bill |
| Banks, Tony (Newham NW) | Evans, John (St Helens N) |
| Barron, Kevin | Ewing, Mrs Margaret |
| Battle, John | Faulds, Andrew |
| Bayley, Hugh | Field, Frank (Birkenhead) |
| Beckett, Rt Hon Margaret | Flynn, Paul |
| Beggs, Roy | Foster, Rt Hon Derek |
| Beith, Rt Hon A J | Foster, Don (Bath) |
| Bell, Stuart | Fyfe, Maria |
| Bennett, Andrew F | Galbraith, Sam |
| Benton, Joe | Galloway, George |
| Bermingham, Gerald | Gapes, Mike |
| Berry, Roger | Garrett, John |
| Betts, Clive | George, Bruce |
| Blunkett, David | Gerrard, Neil |
| Boateng, Paul | Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John |
| Bradley, Keith | Godman, Dr Norman A |
| Bray, Dr Jeremy | Godsiff, Roger |
| Brown, N (N'c'tle upon Tyne E) | Golding, Mrs Llin |
| Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon) | Graham, Thomas |
| Byers, Stephen | Grant, Bernie (Tottenham) |
| Callaghan, Jim | Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S) |
| Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge) | Griffiths, Win (Bridgend) |
| Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE) | Grocott, Bruce |
| Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V) | Hain, Peter |
| Campbell-Savours, D N | Hall, Mike |
| Canavan, Dennis | Hanson, David |
| Cann, Jamie | Hardy, Peter |
| Carlile, Alexander (Montgomery) | Harman, Ms Harriet |
| Chidgey, David | Harvey, Nick |
| Chisholm, Malcolm | Henderson, Doug |
| Church, Judith | Heppell, John |
| Clapham, Michael | Hill, Keith (Streatham) |
| Clark, Dr David (South Shields) | Hinchliffe, David |
| Clarke, Eric (Midlothian) | Hodge, Margaret |
| Clarke, Tom (Monklands W) | Hoey, Kate |
| Clelland, David | Hogg, Norman (Cumbemauld) |
| Clwyd, Mrs Ann | Home Robertson, John |
| Coffey, Ann | Hood, Jimmy |
| Cohen, Harry | Hoon, Geoffrey |
| Cook, Frank (Stockton N) | Howarth, Alan (Strat'rd-on-A) |
| Cook, Robin (Livingston) | Howarth, George (Knowsley North) |
| Corbett, Robin | Howells, Dr Kim (Pontypridd) |
| Corbyn, Jeremy | Hoyle, Doug |
| Corston, Jean | Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) |
| Cunliffe, Lawrence | Hutton, John |
| Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE) | Illsley, Eric |
| Dafis, Cynog | Ingram, Adam |
| Darling, Alistair | Jackson, Glenda (H'stead) |
| Davidson, Ian | Jackson, Helen (Shef'ld, H) |
| Davies, Bryan (Oldham C'tral) | Jamieson, David |
| Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli) | Jones, Barry (Alyn and D'side) |
| Jones, leuan Wyn (Ynys Môn) | Prescott, Rt Hon John |
| Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C) | Primarolo, Dawn |
| Jones, Lynne (B'ham S O) | Purchase, Ken |
| Jones, Martyn (Clwyd, SW) | Quin, Ms Joyce |
| Jowell, Tessa | Randall, Stuart |
| Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald | Raynsford, Nick |
| Keen, Alan | Reid, Dr John |
| Kennedy, Jane (L'pool Br'dg'n) | Rendel, David |
| Khabra, Piara S | Robertson, George (Hamilton) |
| Kilfoyle, Peter | Roche, Mrs Barbara |
| Kirkwood, Archy | Rooker, Jeff |
| Lestor, Joan (Eccles) | Ross, Ernie (Dundee W) |
| Liddell, Mrs Helen | Rowlands, Ted |
| Litherland, Robert | Ruddock, Joan |
| Lloyd, Tony (Stretford) | Salmond, Alex |
| Llwyd, Elfyn | Sedgemore, Brian |
| Lynne, Ms Liz | Sheerman, Barry |
| McAllion, John | Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert |
| McCartney, Ian | Shore, Rt Hon Peter |
| McCartney, Robert | Short, Clare |
| McKelvey, William | Simpson, Alan |
| Mackinlay, Andrew | Skinner, Dennis |
| McLeish, Henry | Smith, Andrew (Oxford E) |
| Madennan, Robert | Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent) |
| McMaster, Gordon | Smyth, The Reverend Martin |
| MacShane, Denis | Spearing, Nigel |
| Madden, Max | Speller, John |
| Maddock, Diana | Squire, Rachel (Dunfermline W) |
| Mahon, Alice | Steel, Rt Hon Sir David |
| Marek, Dr John | Steinberg, Gerry |
| Marshall, David (Shettleston) | Stevenson, George |
| Marshall, Jim (Leicester, S) | Strang, Dr. Gavin |
| Martlew, Eric | Straw, Jack |
| Maxton, John | Sutcliffe, Gerry |
| Meale, Alan | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury) |
| Michael, Alun | Taylor, Matthew (Truro) |
| Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley) | Timms, Stephen |
| Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll & Bute) | Tipping, Paddy |
| Milburn, Alan | Touhig, Don |
| Miller, Andrew | Trimble, David |
| Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby) | Turner, Dennis |
| Molyneaux, Rt Hon Sir James | Tyler, Paul |
| Moonie, Dr Lewis | Vaz, Keith |
| Morgan, Rhodri | Walker, Rt Hon Sir Harold |
| Morley, Elliot | Wallace, James |
| Morris, Rt Hon Alfred (Wy'nshawe) | Walley, Joan |
| Morris, Estelle (B'ham Yardley) | Wardell, Gareth (Gower) |
| Morris, Rt Hon John (Aberavon) | Wareing, Robert N |
| Mudie, George | Watson, Mike |
| Mullin, Chris | Welsh, Andrew |
| Murphy, Paul | Wicks, Malcolm |
| Nicholson, Emma (Devon West) | Williams, RI Hon Alan (SW'n W) |
| Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon | Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen) |
| O'Brien, Mike (N W'kshire) | Winnick, David |
| O'Hara, Edward | Wise, Audrey |
| Olner, Bill | Worthington, Tony |
| O'Neill, Martin | Wray, Jimmy |
| Pearson, Ian | Wright, Dr Tony |
| Pickthall, Colin | Young, David (Bolton SE) |
| Pike, Peter L | |
| Pope, Greg | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Powell, Ray (Ogmore) | Mr. John Cummings and |
| Prentice, Gordon (Pendle) | Mrs. Bridget Prentice. |
| NOES | |
| Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey) | Atkinson, Peter (Hexham) |
| Aitken, Rt Hon Jonathan | Baker, Nicholas (North Dorset) |
| Alexander, Richard | Baldry, Tony |
| Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby) | Banks, Robert (Harrogate) |
| Allason, Rupert (Torbay) | Bates, Michael |
| Arbuthnot, James | Batiste, Spencer |
| Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) | Bellingham, Henry |
| Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv) | Bendall, Vivian |
| Ashby, David | Beresford, Sir Paul |
| Atkins, Rt Hon Robert | Biffen, Rt Hon John |
| Atkinson, David (Bour'mouth E) | Body, Sir Richard |
| Bonsor, Sir Nicholas | Gillen, Cheryl |
| Boswell, Tim | Goodlad, Rt Hon Alastair |
| Bottomley, Peter (Eltham) | Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles |
| Bowden, Sir Andrew | Gorman, Mrs Teresa |
| Bowis, John | Gorst, Sir John |
| Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes | Grant, Sir A (SW Cambs) |
| Brandreth, Gyles | Greenway, Harry (Ealing N) |
| Brazier, Julian | Greenway, John (Ryedale) |
| Bright, Sir Graham | Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N) |
| Brooke, Rt Hon Peter | Grylls, Sir Michael |
| Brown, M (Brigg & Cl'thorpes) | Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn |
| Browning, Mrs Angela | Hague, Rt Hon William |
| Bruce, Ian (Dorset) | Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archibald |
| Burns, Simon | Hamilton, Neil (Tatton) |
| Burt, Alistair | Hampson, Dr Keith |
| Butterfill, John | Hanley, Rt Hon Jeremy |
| Carlisle, John (Luton North) | Hannam, Sir John |
| Carlisle, Sir Kenneth (Lincoln) | Hargreaves, Andrew |
| Carrington, Matthew | Harris, David |
| Carttiss, Michael | Haselhurst, Sir Alan |
| Cash, William | Hawkins, Nick |
| Channon, Rt Hon Paul | Hawksley, Warren |
| Chapman, Sir Sydney | Hayes, Jerry |
| Churchill, Mr | Heald, Oliver |
| Clappison, James | Heath, Rt Hon Sir Edward |
| Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford) | Heathcoat-Amory, Rt Hon David |
| Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey | Hendry, Charles |
| Coe, Sebastian | Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael |
| Congdon, David | Hicks, Robert |
| Conway, Derek | Higgins, Rt Hon Sir Terence |
| Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st) | Hill, James (Southampton Test) |
| Coombs, Simon (Swindon) | Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas (G'tham) |
| Cope, Rt Hon Sir John | Horam, John |
| Couchman, James | Hordern, Rt Hon Sir Peter |
| Cran, James | Howard, Rt Hon Michael |
| Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire) | Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford) |
| Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon) | Howell, Sir Ralph (N N'folk) |
| Davies, Quentin (Starnford) | Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W) |
| Davis, David (Boothferry) | Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W) |
| Day, Stephen | Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne) |
| Deva, Nirj Joseph | Hunter, Andrew |
| Devlin, Tim | Jack, Michael |
| Dicks, Terry | Jackson, Robert (Wantage) |
| Dorrell, Rt Hon Stephen | Jenkin, Bernard |
| Dover, Den | Jessel, Toby |
| Duncan, Alan | Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey |
| Duncan-Smith, Iain | Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) |
| Dunn, Bob | Jones, Robert B. (W H'fordshire) |
| Durant, Sir Anthony | Jopling, Rt Hon Michael |
| Dykes, Hugh | Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine |
| Eggar, Rt Hon Tim | Key, Robert |
| Elletson, Harold | Kirkhope, Timothy |
| Emery, Rt Hon Sir Peter | Knapman, Roger |
| Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield) | Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash) |
| Evans, Jonathan (Brecon) | Knight, R Hon Greg (Derby N) |
| Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley) | Knight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'st'n) |
| Evans, Roger (Monmouth) | Knox, Sir David |
| Evennett, David | Kynoch, George (Kincardine) |
| Faber, David | Lait, Mrs Jacqui |
| Fabricant, Michael | Lamont, Rt Hon Norman |
| Fenner, Dame Peggy | Lawrence, Sir Ivan |
| Field, Barry (Isle of Wight) | Legg, Barry |
| Fishburn, Dudley | Leigh, Edward |
| Forman, Nigel | Lester, Sir James (Broxtowe) |
| Forsyth, Rt Hon Michael (Stirling) | Lidington, David |
| Forth, Eric | Lilley, Rt Hon Peter |
| Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman | Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham) |
| Fox, Rt Hon Sir Marcus (Shipley) | Lord, Michael |
| Freeman, Rt Hon Roger | Luff, Peter |
| French, Douglas | MacGregor, Rt Hon John |
| Gale, Roger | MacKay, Andrew |
| Gallie, Phil | Maclean, Rt Hon David |
| Gardiner, Sir George | McLoughlin, Patrick |
| Garel-Jones, Rt Hon Tristan | McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick |
| Garnier, Edward | Madel, Sir David |
| Gill, Christopher | Maitland, Lady Olga |
| Malone, Gerald | Spencer, Sir Derek |
| Mans, Keith | Spicer, Sir James (W Dorset) |
| Marland, Paul | Spicer, Sir Michael (S Worcs) |
| Marlow, Tony | Spink, Dr Robert |
| Martin, David (Portsmouth S) | Spring, Richard |
| Mates, Michael | Sproat, Iain |
| Mawhinney, Rt Hon Dr Brian | Squire, Robin (Hornchurch) |
| Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick | Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John |
| Merchant, Piers | Steen, Anthony |
| Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling) | Stephen, Michael |
| Mitchell, Sir David (NW Hants) | Stern, Michael |
| Moate, Sir Roger | Stewart, Allan |
| Monro, Rt Hon Sir Hector | Streeter, Gary |
| Montgomery, Sir Fergus | Sumberg, David |
| Needham, Rt Hon Richard | Sweeney, Walter |
| Neubert, Sir Michael | Sykes, John |
| Newton, Rt Hon Tony | Tapsell, Sir Peter |
| Nicholls, Patrick | Taylor, Ian (Esher) |
| Nicholson, David (Taunton) | Taylor, John M (Solihull) |
| Norris, Steve | Taylor, Sir Teddy (Southend, E) |
| Onslow, Rt Hon Sir Cranley | Temple-Morris, Peter |
| Ottaway, Richard | Thomason, Roy |
| Page, Richard | Thompson, Sir Donald (C'er V) |
| Paice, James | Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N) |
| Patnick, Sir Irvine | Thornton, Sir Malcolm |
| Patten, Rt Hon John | Thurnham, Peter |
| Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey | Tracey, Richard |
| Pawsey, James | Tredinnick, David |
| Pickles, Eric | Trend, Michael |
| Porter, Barry (Wirral S) | Twinn, Dr Ian |
| Porter, David (Waveney) | Viggers, Peter |
| Powell, William (Corby) | Waldegrave, Rt Hon William |
| Rathbone, Tim | Walden, George |
| Redwood, Rt Hon John | Walker, Bill (N Tayside) |
| Renton, Rt Hon Tim | Waller, Gary |
| Richards, Rod | Ward, John |
| Riddick, Graham | Wardle, Charles (Bexhill) |
| Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn | Waterson, Nigel |
| Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S) | Watts, John |
| Robinson, Mark (Somerton) | Wheeler, Rt Hon Sir John |
| Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne) | Whitney, Ray |
| Rowe, Andrew (Mid Kent) | Whittingdale, John |
| Rumbold, Rt Hon Dame Angela | Widdecombe, Ann |
| Sackville, Tom | Wilkinson, John |
| Sainsbury, Rt Hon Sir Timothy | Willetts, David |
| Scott, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas | Wilshire, David |
| Shaw, David (Dover) | Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton) |
| Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey) | Wolfson, Mark |
| Shephard, Rt Hon Gillian | Wood, Timothy |
| Shepherd, Sir Colin (Hereford) | Yeo, Tim |
| Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge) | |
| Sims, Roger | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Skeet, Sir Trevor | Dr. Liam Fox and |
| Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick) | Mr. Bowen Wells. |
§ Question accordingly negatived.
§ Order for Third Reading read.
Mr. Deputy SpeakerI have to inform the House that Madam Speaker has not selected the reasoned amendment.
§ Mr. ForthI beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
Our objectives in the Bill are simple and straightforward. We want to extend choice, competition and diversity in the provision of loans to students. Those are our fundamental principles in education, and indeed throughout the public sector. Through competition, student borrowers will get a better service and a better tailored product. Personal lending is best done by the banks and building societies—the experts, after all—and 828 not necessarily by the Government. It is surely preferable that the enormous sums involved are raised and that the risks are largely borne by the private sector.
Any loan scheme has to balance the interests of the taxpayer and of the student. Our scheme offers preferential terms, including deferment and a retail prices index-linked interest rate for students, and a relatively short repayment period benefits the taxpayer. To that extent, our scheme is already income contingent. I am not persuaded that other schemes would offer a better balance.
We will have to wait to see whether Opposition Members want to shift the balance towards the taxpayer or the student, when they eventually decide what they want to do. At least we know that some Opposition Members appear to accept the principle of loans—five years after we debated the previous Education (Student Loans) Bill. I hope that we do not have to wait that long before we hear the Opposition's attitude to some of the more developed aspects of policy.
The Labour party aspires to be the party of business. Indeed, the matter was raised yet again while discussing the final amendment tabled on Report a few minutes ago. Yet given the opportunity to back choice and competition in the private sector, the Labour party has shown how truly empty its aspiration is—certainly in the context of the Bill. All that Labour could come up with was more or less pointless regulation and an inherent distrust of the private sector.
I believe that this modest Bill will move us forward significantly in quality and choice in the provision of loans to students. We have discussed it in detail in Committee and again on Report. The Bill, in its present form, will provide the ideal vehicle for the enhanced provision of loans to students, within the constraints of the existing regime. We should also bear it in mind that the new provision will exist in parallel with continuing provision from the Student Loans Company, which will continue to operate and to offer a choice between private and public sector loans. I hope that the House appreciates the merits of the Bill, however modest it may be. I ask the House to give it a Third Reading.
§ Mr. Bryan DaviesI oppose Third Reading of the Bill. We are getting accustomed to the Government misusing the concept of choice in education. The choice that they suggest for school students and their parents frequently turns out to be choice by schools of students. Here we have the supposed extension of choice and opportunity to students. It is, however, clear that the choice will be exercised by banks and private institutions.
The Bill is an enabling Bill, without detail on the way in which the Government intend to act. It is without detail because there was not adequate preparation before it was introduced. The Bill was introduced in a tremendous rush, and that rush was born of one concept only—how to ensure that the Government could write into the budgetary forecast £100 million of savings from privatising an expensive part of the student loan provision. This first piece of legislation of the Government's last full parliamentary Session, the pathfinder of the Government's legislative programme, is sadly off course and is proving an appalling augury of the Government's Bills this Session.
829 Before the Bill was discussed in Committee, the Minister said that the whole issue was about breakneck speed and the necessity for extreme urgency in implementing the Bill. That urgency was, of course, born of an attempt to deliver £100 million of savings in the public sector in 1996–97. In Committee, the Minister admitted that the game was up for this year and that the Bill's real impact would be postponed until after the next general election, whenever that might be.
Why should Parliament indulge a Government on their last legs who seek to condition the actions of future Governments, against a background of their having manifestly failed to produce details of how the scheme should work and of there being no convincing sign that anyone supports the Bill, apart from Ministers and Conservative Back Benchers? Is there a single interest group concerned with higher education or any group concerned with the welfare of education that has had a good thing to say about the Bill? Why should the House grant power for subsidies to the private sector when critical assurances have not been given on how the Minister intends that the subsidies should be guarded?
In Committee and today, there has been no explanation of how the Minister will seek to give even limited protection to students—the remnants of a fair deal—before the legislation comes into force. What will dictate the allocation of loans to students will, of course, be straight commercial criteria. There will be no right of appeal for students and no guarantee that public money is being allocated on the basis of fair principles. The Minister believes in caveat emptor for students—they will have to look after themselves when dealing with the banks.
Moreover, the Government have learned nothing from the widely catalogued difficulties of the existing student loans scheme through the Student Loans Company. The present scheme is subject to almost universal criticism, yet the Minister has made no concession at all to that. He gave no concession to any concept that loans should be repaid on the basis of income contingency, and he made no attempt to recognise what is needed to support a learning-centred society.
The Government have thrown away an opportunity to consider how to guarantee the numbers of students in higher education adequately, and to guarantee that students are properly resourced on a fair basis to ensure that the country develops the skill levels that we desperately need. Instead, the Minister has produced a Bill that merely builds on the weaknesses of the existing system. The Bill is modelled on a scheme that has been subject to criticism on every side. Instead of using the opportunity to think afresh and to produce a new and good scheme—of which many models have been put before the Minister in recent years—the Minister has produced two bad schemes. The House should reject the Bill.
§ Mr. George Walden (Buckingham)When I was trying to sell the concept of student loans as a junior Minister in the mid-1980s, one of the many objections I heard was that the scheme was the thin end of the wedge. I was careful at the time not to deny that; frankly, I believe that the wedge has a long way to go.
830 I disagree with nothing in the Bill, but I would add a footnote. The way in which our universities and higher education establishments are developing means that, one of these days, we will have to drive that wedge in further to sustain the undoubted quality of our system. Hon. Members on both sides of the House will have to start thinking and talking about contributions to higher education fees, and not just what we are discussing in the Bill—student loans for maintenance.
That suggestion is recognised by honest Opposition Members, notably the hon. Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr. Rooker), who has come up with the notion of a graduate tax. I do not think that Conservative Members should dismiss that proposal out of hand on partisan grounds. As a Chamber, as a House of Commons and as a country, we face the problem of how to finance the tripling in the number of students without going down the road of some of our continental partners, who provide a low-grade mass higher education system. We do not want that.
There are some signs of an increasing lack of facilities, and there is news today of an increase in the drop-out rate. One of the great things about our system was that we had a low drop-out rate, and we should read the warning signs and try to be as honest as we can in electoral and partisan terms about this matter. I am not such a fool as not to realise that that suggestion is electoral dynamite, because we are talking about some form or other of contribution from the middle classes towards the maintenance of the high standard of a system which their children preponderantly benefit from. That was not a very good sentence, and I am sorry about that.
I do not want to criticise the Government and, having been in at the beginning of the process, I understand the circumstances and why they are introducing the measure. This is not the end of the process, however. It is a thin wedge, but if we want to maintain the high quality of higher education, the Government—or Labour, if it takes power—will have to force the wedge in deeper. Funds will have to come from outside the Government, and that will involve some form of contribution towards university fees.
§ Mr. Don Foster (Bath)The hon. Member for Buckingham (Mr. Walden) is right to challenge all political parties as he has done. The sadness is that the Bill does not address that challenge, which must be addressed. It is a desperate measure which has been hastily prepared and introduced. The Bill's passage through the House, as the hon. Member for Hyndburn (Mr. Pope) was keen for me to point out to the House, is a further example of the chaos and confusion created by the Government. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I thought that Labour Members would like that.
Although there may be some merit in sharing loan risk with the private sector, in many respects the Bill fails. It fails to tackle the real problems of student debt and poverty. Despite what the Minister told us in Committee, student debt and poverty have an impact on the quality of students' learning, and are at least in part responsible for the unacceptably large number of students who simply do not complete their courses, creating a real waste of talent.
The Bill fails to provide support where support is urgently needed, for part-time students in higher and further education. It is particularly important that we should be considering those students this year, which is the European Year of Lifelong Learning.
831 The Bill fails to consider the possibility of moving from a mortgage-type repayment scheme to an income-contingent repayment scheme, which would be fairer to the borrowers and much more secure for the lenders. The Bill fails to meet the legitimate demands for parliamentary scrutiny, and it even fails to ensure that higher education institutions are properly recompensed for the costs that they incur in the administration of the proposed scheme.
The scheme has failed, above all, to attract the rush by the private sector to become involved with the scheme that the Government assumed would occur. The Government's failure to attract the private sector has meant that, only two months after the Chancellor's Budget, the education budget is now £100 million adrift.
When the Bill was introduced, it looked weak and pallid. As we studied the Bill in much more detail in Committee, it became apparent that it was seriously ill. The building societies and the banks are avoiding it like one would avoid a contagious disease. It is a sad and miserable Bill, and hon. Members should put it out of its misery by declining to give it a Third Reading.
§ Question put, That the Bill be now read the Third time:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 276, Noes 247.
834| Division No. 28] | [9.30 pm |
| AYES | |
| Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey) | Cash, William |
| Aitken, Rt Hon Jonathan | Channon, Rt Hon Paul |
| Alexander, Richard | Chapman, Sir Sydney |
| Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby) | Churchill, Mr |
| Allason, Rupert (Torbay) | Clappison, James |
| Arbuthnot, James | Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford) |
| Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) | Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey |
| Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv) | Coe, Sebastian |
| Ashby, David | Congdon, David |
| Atkins, Rt Hon Robert | Conway, Derek |
| Atkinson, David (Bour'mouth E) | Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st) |
| Atkinson, Peter (Hexham) | Coombs, Simon (Swindon) |
| Baker, Nicholas (North Dorset) | Cope, Rt Hon Sir John |
| Baldry, Tony | Couchman, James |
| Banks, Robert (Harrogate) | Cran, James |
| Bates, Michael | Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire) |
| Batiste, Spencer | Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon) |
| Bellingham, Henry | Davies, Quentin (Stamford) |
| Bendall, Vivian | Davis, David (Boothferry) |
| Beresford, Sir Paul | Day, Stephen |
| Biffen, Rt Hon John | Deva, Nirj Joseph |
| Body, Sir Richard | Devlin, Tim |
| Bonsor, Sir Nicholas | Dicks, Terry |
| Boswell, Tim | Dorrell, Rt Hon Stephen |
| Bottomley, Peter (Eltham) | Dover, Den |
| Bowden, Sir Andrew | Duncan, Alan |
| Bowis, John | Duncan-Smith, Iain |
| Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes | Dunn, Bob |
| Brandreth, Gyles | Durant, Sir Anthony |
| Brazier, Julian | Dykes, Hugh |
| Bright, Sir Graham | Eggar, Rt Hon Tim |
| Brooke, Rt Hon Peter | Elletson, Harold |
| Brown, M (Brigg & Cl'thorpes) | Emery, Rt Hon Sir Peter |
| Browning, Mrs Angela | Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield) |
| Bruce, Ian (Dorset) | Evans, Jonathan (Brecon) |
| Burns, Simon | Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley) |
| Burt, Alistair | Evans, Roger (Monmouth) |
| Butterfill, John | Evennett, David |
| Carlisle, John (Luton North) | Faber, David |
| Carlisle, Sir Kenneth (Lincoln) | Fabricant, Michael |
| Carrington, Matthew | Fenner, Dame Peggy |
| Carttiss, Michael | Field, Barry (Isle of Wight) |
| Fishburn, Dudley | Leigh, Edward |
| Forman, Nigel | Lester, Sir James (Broxtowe) |
| Forsyth, Rt Hon Michael (Stirling) | Lidington, David |
| Forth, Eric | Lilley, Rt Hon Peter |
| Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman | Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham) |
| Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring) | Lord, Michael |
| Fox, Rt Hon Sir Marcus (Shipley) | Luff, Peter |
| Freeman, Rt Hon Roger | MacGregor, Rt Hon John |
| French, Douglas | MacKay, Andrew |
| Gale, Roger | Maclean, Rt Hon David |
| Gallie, Phil | McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick |
| Gardiner, Sir George | Madel, Sir David |
| Garel-Jones, Rt Hon Tristan | Maitland, Lady Olga |
| Garnier, Edward | Mans, Keith |
| Gill, Christopher | Marland, Paul |
| Gillan, Cheryl | Marlow, Tony |
| Goodlad, Rt Hon Alastair | Martin, David (Portsmouth S) |
| Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles | Mates, Michael |
| Gorman, Mrs Teresa | Mawhinney, Rt Hon Dr Brian |
| Gorst, Sir John | Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick |
| Grant, Sir A (SW Cambs) | Merchant, Piers |
| Greenway, Harry (Ealing N) | Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling) |
| Greenway, John (Ryedale) | Mitchell, Sir David (NW Hants) |
| Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N) | Moate, Sir Roger |
| Grylls, Sir Michael | Monro, Rt Hon Sir Hector |
| Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn | Montgomery, Sir Fergus |
| Hague, Rt Hon William | Needham, Rt Hon Richard |
| Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archibald | Neubert, Sir Michael |
| Hamilton, Neil (Tatton) | Newton, Rt Hon Tony |
| Hampson, Dr Keith | Nicholls, Patrick |
| Hanley, Rt Hon Jeremy | Nicholson, David (Taunton) |
| Hannam, Sir John | Norris, Steve |
| Hargreaves, Andrew | Onslow, Rt Hon Sir Cranley |
| Harris, David | Ottaway, Richard |
| Haselhurst, Sir Alan | Page, Richard |
| Hawkins, Nick | Paice, James |
| Hawksley, Warren | Patnick, Sir Irvine |
| Hayes, Jerry | Patten, Rt Hon John |
| Heald, Oliver | Pawsey, James |
| Heath, Rt Hon Sir Edward | Pickles, Eric |
| Heathcoat-Amory, Rt Hon David | Porter, Barry (Wirral S) |
| Hendry, Charles | Porter, David (Waveney) |
| Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael | Powell, William (Corby) |
| Hicks, Robert | Rathbone, Tim |
| Higgins, Rt Hon Sir Terence | Redwood, Rt Hon John |
| Hill, James (Southampton Test) | Renton, Rt Hon Tim |
| Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas (G'tham) | Richards, Rod |
| Horam, John | Riddick, Graham |
| Hordern, Rt Hon Sir Peter | Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn |
| Howard, Rt Hon Michael | Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S) |
| Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford) | Robinson, Mark (Somerton) |
| Howell, Sir Ralph (N Norfolk) | Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne) |
| Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W) | Rowe, Andrew (Mid Kent) |
| Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W) | Rumbold, Rt Hon Dame Angela |
| Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne) | Sackville, Tom |
| Hunter, Andrew | Sainsbury, Rt Hon Sir Timothy |
| Jack, Michael | Scott, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas |
| Jackson, Robert (Wantage) | Shaw, David (Dover) |
| Jenkin, Bernard | Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey) |
| Jessel, Toby | |
| Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey | Shephard, Rt Hon Gillian |
| Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) | Shepherd, Sir Colin (Hereford) |
| Jones, Robert B (W Hertfdshr) | Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge) |
| Jopling, Rt Hon Michael | Sims, Roger |
| Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine | Skeet, Sir Trevor |
| Key, Robert | Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick) |
| Kirkhope, Timothy | Spencer, Sir Derek |
| Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash) | Spicer, Sir James (W Dorset) |
| Knight, Rt Hon Greg (Derby N) | Spicer, Sir Michael (S Worcs) |
| Knight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'st'n) | Spink, Dr Robert |
| Knox, Sir David | Spring, Richard |
| Kynoch, George (Kincardine) | Sproat, Iain |
| Lait, Mrs Jacqui | Squire, Robin (Hornchurch) |
| Lamont, Rt Hon Norman | Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John |
| Lawrence, Sir Ivan | Steen, Anthony |
| Legg, Barry | Stephen, Michael |
| Stern, Michael |
| Stewart, Allan | Walker, Bill (N Tayside) |
| Streeter, Gary | Waller, Gary |
| Sumberg, David | Ward, John |
| Sweeney, Walter | Wardle, Charles (Bexhill) |
| Sykes, John | Waterson, Nigel |
| Tapsell, Sir Peter | Watts, John |
| Taylor, Ian (Esher) | Wells, Bowen |
| Taylor, John M (Solihull) | Wheeler, Rt Hon Sir John |
| Taylor, Sir Teddy (Southend, E) | Whitney, Ray |
| Temple-Morris, Peter | Whittingdale, John |
| Thomason, Roy | Widdecombe, Ann |
| Thompson, Sir Donald (C'er V) | Wilkinson, John |
| Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N) | Willetts, David |
| Thornton, Sir Malcolm | Wilshire, David |
| Thurnham, Peter | Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton) |
| Tracey, Richard | Wolfson, Mark |
| Tredinnick, David | Wood, Timothy |
| Trend, Michael | Yeo, Tim |
| Twinn, Dr Ian | |
| Viggers, Peter | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Waldegrave, Rt Hon William | Mr. Roger Knapman and |
| Walden, George | Mr. Patrick McLoughlin. |
| NOES | |
| Abbott, Ms Diane | Corbett, Robin |
| Adams, Mrs Irene | Corbyn, Jeremy |
| Ainger, Nick | Corston, Jean |
| Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE) | Cunliffe, Lawrence |
| Alton, David | Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE) |
| Anderson, Donald (Swansea E) | Dafis, Cynog |
| Anderson, Ms Janet (Ros'dale) | Darling, Alistair |
| Armstrong, Hilary | Davidson, Ian |
| Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy | Davies, Bryan (Oldham C'tral) |
| Ashton, Joe | Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli) |
| Austin-Walker, John | Davies, Ron (Caerphilly) |
| Banks, Tony (Newham NW) | Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'dge H'l) |
| Barron, Kevin | Denham, John |
| Battle, John | Dewar, Donald |
| Bayley, Hugh | Dixon, Don |
| Beckett, Rt Hon Margaret | Donohoe, Brian H |
| Beggs, Roy | Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth |
| Beith, Rt Hon A J | Eagle, Ms Angela |
| Bell, Stuart | Eastham, Ken |
| Bennett, Andrew F | Etherington, Bill |
| Benton, Joe | Evans, John (St Helens N) |
| Bermingham, Gerald | Ewing, Mrs Margaret |
| Berry, Roger | Faulds, Andrew |
| Betts, Clive | Field, Frank (Birkenhead) |
| Blunkett, David | Flynn, Paul |
| Boateng, Paul | Foster, Rt Hon Derek |
| Bradley, Keith | Foster, Don (Bath) |
| Bray, Dr Jeremy | Fyfe, Maria |
| Brown, N (N'c'tle upon Tyne E) | Galbraith, Sam |
| Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon) | Galloway, George |
| Byers, Stephen | Gapes, Mike |
| Callaghan, Jim | Garrett, John |
| Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge) | George, Bruce |
| Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE) | Gerrard, Neil |
| Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V) | Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John |
| Campbell-Savours, D N | Godman, Dr Norman A |
| Canavan, Dennis | Godsiff, Roger |
| Cann, Jamie | Golding, Mrs Llin |
| Carlile, Alexander (Montgomery) | Graham, Thomas |
| Chidgey, David | Grant, Bernie (Tottenham) |
| Chisholm, Malcolm | Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S) |
| Church, Judith | Griffiths, Win (Bridgend) |
| Clapham, Michael | Grocott, Bruce |
| Clark, Dr David (South Shields) | Hain, Peter |
| Clarke, Eric (Midlothian) | Hall, Mike |
| Clarke, Tom (Monklands W) | Hanson, David |
| Clelland, David | Hardy, Peter |
| Clwyd, Mrs Ann | Harman, Ms Harriet |
| Coffey, Ann | Harvey, Nick |
| Cohen, Harry | Henderson, Doug |
| Cook, Frank (Stockton N) | Heppell, John |
| Cook, Robin (Livingston) | Hill, Keith (Streatham) |
| Hinchliffe, David | O'Hara, Edward |
| Hodge, Margaret | Olner, Bill |
| Hoey, Kate | O'Neill, Martin |
| Hogg, Norman (Cumbernauld) | Pearson, Ian |
| Home Robertson, John | Pickthall, Colin |
| Hood, Jimmy | Pike, Peter L |
| Hoon, Geoffrey | Pope, Greg |
| Howarth, Alan (Strafrd-on-A) | Powell, Ray (Ogmore) |
| Howarth, George (Knowsley North) | Prentice, Gordon (Pendle) |
| Howells, Dr Kim (Pontypridd) | Prescott, Rt Hon John |
| Hoyle, Doug | Primarolo, Dawn |
| Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) | Purchase, Ken |
| Hutton, John | Quin, Ms Joyce |
| Ingram, Adam | Randall, Stuart |
| Jackson, Glenda (H'stead) | Raynsford, Nick |
| Jackson, Helen (Shef'ld, H) | Reid, Dr John |
| Jamieson, David | Rendel, David |
| Jones, Barry (Alyn arid D'side) | Robertson, George (Hamilton) |
| Jones, leuan Wyn (Ynys Môn) | Roche, Mrs Barbara |
| Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C) | Rooker, Jeff |
| Jones, Lynne (B'ham S O) | Ross, Ernie (Dundee W) |
| Jones, Martyn (Clwyd, SW) | Rowlands, Ted |
| Jowell, Tessa | Ruddock, Joan |
| Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald | Salmond, Alex |
| Keen, Alan | Sedgemore, Brian |
| Kennedy, Jane (L'pool Br'dg'n) | Sheerman, Barry |
| Khabra, Piara S | Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert |
| Kilfoyle, Peter | Shore, Rt Hon Peter |
| Kirkwood, Archy | Short, Clare |
| Lestor, Joan (Eccles) | Simpson, Alan |
| Liddell, Mrs Helen | Skinner, Dennis |
| Litherland, Robert | Smith, Andrew (Oxford E) |
| Lloyd, Tony (Stretford) | Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent) |
| Llwyd, Elfyn | Smyth, The Reverend Martin |
| Lynne, Ms Liz | Spearing, Nigel |
| McAllion, John | Spellar, John |
| McCartney, Ian | Squire, Rachel (Dunfermline W) |
| McCartney, Robert | Steel, Rt Hon Sir David |
| McKelvey, William | Steinberg, Gerry |
| Mackinlay, Andrew | Stevenson, George |
| McLeish, Henry | Stott, Roger |
| Maclennan, Robert | Strang, Dr. Gavin |
| McMaster, Gordon | Straw, Jack |
| MacShane, Denis | Sutcliffe, Gerry |
| McWilliam, John | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury) |
| Madden, Max | Taylor, Matthew (Truro) |
| Maddock, Diana | Thompson, Jack (Wansbeck) |
| Mahon, Alice | Timms, Stephen |
| Marek, Dr John | Tipping, Paddy |
| Marshall, David (Shettleston) | Touhig, Don |
| Marshall, Jim (Leicester, S) | Trimble, David |
| Martlew, Eric | Turner, Dennis |
| Maxton, John | Tyler, Paul |
| Meacher, Michael | Vaz, Keith |
| Meale, Alan | Walker, Rt Hon Sir Harold |
| Michael, Alun | Wallace, James |
| Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley) | Walley, Joan |
| Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll & Bute) | Wardell, Gareth (Gower) |
| Milburn, Alan | Wareing, Robert N |
| Miller, Andrew | Watson, Mike |
| Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby) | Welsh, Andrew |
| Molyneaux, Rt Hon Sir James | Wicks, Malcolm |
| Moonie, Dr Lewis | Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Sw'n W) |
| Morgan, Rhodri | Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen) |
| Morley, Elliot | Winnick, David |
| Morris, Rt Hon Alfred (Wy'nshawe) | Wise, Audrey |
| Morris, Estelle (B'ham Yardley) | Wray, Jimmy |
| Morris, Rt Hon John (Aberavon) | Wright, Dr Tony |
| Mudie, George | Young, David (Bolton SE) |
| Mullin, Chris | |
| Murphy, Paul | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Nicholson, Emma (Devon West) | Mr. John Cummings and |
| Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon | Mrs. Bridget Prentice. |
| O'Brien, Mike (N W'kshire) |
§ Question accordingly agreed to.
§ Bill read the Third time, and passed.
§ Mr. Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan)On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Have you had any request for a statement from any Scottish Office Minister about some remarkable developments in the Scottish Office information directorate tonight?
§ Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael Morris)Order. I have had no request for any statements on any subjects.
§ Mr. SalmondOn a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerIs it a new point of order?
§ Mr. SalmondYes. Is it within the province of the Chair to consider "Questions of Procedure for Ministers", as issued by the Cabinet Office of May 1992? As you may know, this morning the Secretary of State missed an important debate on the cold weather in Scotland to deliver a speech in Scotland which, to many people, seemed to consider some political elements. A section of that speech was subsequently withdrawn by the Scottish Office information directorate, although the text was delivered verbatim by the Secretary of State. The director of the directorate—a former press officer for Westminister City Council—has been forced to apologise—
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. The hon. Gentleman has been here long enough to know that that is not a matter for the Chair.
§ Mr. SalmondOn a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerIs it on an entirely new subject?
§ Mr. SalmondIt is within the province of the Chair to consider a breach of "Questions of Procedure for Ministers"—
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. The hon. Gentleman knows that it is not for him to decide what is within the province of the Chair. That is for the Chair to decide. I call the Minister for Rural Affairs, the hon. Member for Daventry (Mr. Boswell).
§ Mr. SalmondOn a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Can the Chair advise me whether it is in order for me to raise what is an admitted breach by the Scottish Office of "Questions of Procedure for Ministers", when the director of the Scottish Office information directorate has been forced—
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. I am happy to advise the hon. Member that matters of ministerial procedure are entirely a matter for the Prime Minister and are nothing to do with the Chair.
§ Mr. Salmondrose—
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. The hon. Gentleman has had three bites at the same cherry. That is quite enough for this time of night.