§ 9. Mr. Win GriffithsTo ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many prisons or designated prison sites he has visited to discuss the provision of accommodation in the last year. [13857]
§ Miss WiddecombeSince 1 January 1995, my right hon. and learned Friend has visited six prison establishments in England and Wales. I have visited 28 prisons since July 1995. In the course of those visits we discussed a range of issues affecting the Prison Service, including the provision of accommodation.
§ Mr. GriffithsDid the Minister and the Secretary of State discuss with prison governors and other prison staff the increase in overcrowding since 1992? I understand that there are now more people crowded into single-prisoner cells than there were in 1992–93. In the prison planned for Bridgend in my constituency, will special care be taken to set strict limits on additional prisoners above the planned numbers—unless some of her right hon. Friends find their way there following the publication of the Scott report?
§ Miss WiddecombeThe hon. Gentleman might have carried more conviction had he got his facts right. Far from increasing since 1992, overcrowding has decreased substantially. There has been no trebling whatever in cells designed for one since March 1994. We have completely eliminated the use of police cells and the incidence of two prisoners occupying cells that are designed for one has decreased from 21 per cent. to 17 per cent. I suggest that the hon. Gentleman does his homework before he comes to the House.
§ Mr. HawkinsWill my hon. Friend confirm that much prison accommodation is occupied by those convicted of serious shoplifting offences? Does she agree that, whereas the Government provided a citizens charter, the Labour party clearly propose a shoplifters charter. Have we not had the clearest demonstration that my right hon. Friend was right to say that the Labour party is the villain's friend?
§ Miss WiddecombeThe Labour party's definition of villainy is for a thief to be putting a treat in his or her pocket. What message is the Leader of the Opposition sending to children throughout the country—that it is all right for Mummy to go shoplifting?
§ Mr. Alex CarlileCan the Minister confirm that the Home Secretary's new sentencing policies are likely to lead to an increase of about £1 billion in the cost of the prison building programme? If that is not correct, will she give us an up-to-date estimate of the extra cost of those policies?
§ Miss WiddecombeThe hon. and learned Gentleman will have to wait for the White Paper to find out more about those policies, but clearly we shall take into account the impact on both the prison population and the prison budget of our sentencing proposals and we shall make sure that the sentencing proposals and those other requirements are properly matched in whatever phasing we introduce. The hon. and learned Gentleman knows 1129 very well that he cannot get us to anticipate the White Paper now, but he needs telling firmly that we are aware of the problem and we shall find solutions to it. His party offers no solutions to crime, to prison or anything, other than the usual story of softness on prisoners.
§ Lady Olga MaitlandWhat progress can my hon. Friend report on the building of the secure training centres? Is she aware that youth courts are increasingly frustrated about their inability to put young persistent offenders into secure accommodation, so that they have to go back into the community and may offend again. Frankly, society is fed up.
§ Miss WiddecombeMy hon. Friend is quite right that society expects us to provide sufficient accommodation to take out of circulation those of whatever age who commit crimes. That is why we have had the single biggest prison building programme this century; that is why we have six new prisons planned; that is why we have sufficient accommodation to meet our proposals. That is why, as I told the hon. Member for Bridgend (Mr. Griffiths), we shall make sure that the prisons are there for those who ought to be in them. That is the policy that the British public want to hear. They do not want to hear about how we shall praise and release shoplifters.
§ Mr. George HowarthIs the Minister aware that the Director General of the Prison Service and senior members of his staff appeared before the Public Accounts Committee yesterday and confirmed what we have known for some time: that Prison Service finances are in complete chaos? Is not the Home Secretary's announcement earlier this week that he is seeking alternatives to imprisonment for fine defaulters—interesting though that proposal may be—a reflection of that chaos and of the growing problem of offenders continually entering the prison system? Is the Home Secretary's announcement an indication that he is going soft on crime?
§ Miss WiddecombeThe only chaos in the Prison Service exists in the heads and the minds of Labour Members. As the National Audit Office recognised, the Prison Service has taken steps to correct what was wrong in the past. It has introduced rigorous new measures and increased the number of staff accordingly in order to attack the problem. It is putting much right at an exemplary pace.
It is typical of the Opposition that they cannot welcome that fact or pay tribute to or thank the very hard-working Prison Service management and staff for all that they have achieved. Labour Members simply pour scorn on what the National Audit Office has acknowledged are strenuous efforts to put things right. The hon. Gentleman should stop proclaiming gloom and doom and start recognising the achievements of the Prison Service and praising the very hard-working staff. If he does that, perhaps the Prison Service may have more confidence in the hon. Gentleman—because it has none at present.