11. Mr. Robert G. HughesTo ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many representations he has received on tax-raising powers for a Welsh Assembly; and if he will make a statement. [5218]
Mr. HughesHas my right hon. Friend considered the words of the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Davies), who says that a Welsh Assembly would not initially need tax-raising powers? Might that be a recognition that Wales would be enormously disadvantaged by losing a Cabinet Minister to argue its case at the Cabinet table? Indeed, it would be losing a UK Parliament representing the whole of the United Kingdom, which is therefore happy to allocate UK taxes to the people of Wales. In other words, a Welsh Assembly could be a financial disaster for Wales, forcing it to raise its own money within Wales. Is there a recognition by the hon. Member for Caerphilly that what he is suggesting would be disastrous for every taxpayer in Wales?
§ Mr. HagueMy hon. Friend is right. The words of the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Davies) have been shrouded in mystery, but I think that he has lifted some of the veil with his speculations this afternoon. A Welsh Assembly could certainly be disastrous financially for the governing of Wales. A tax-raising assembly would also be disastrous financially because it would be a major disincentive to further economic investment and increased prosperity in Wales. It is time for Opposition Members to clarify what they mean by not initially having tax-raising powers, by explaining whether they mean that it would have them after five years, 10 years or after another referendum. Would they have a Welsh version of the tartan tax? Why do they not propose having a referendum straight away so that the people of Wales can rule out an assembly?
§ Mr. HainIn respect of finance for a Welsh Assembly, will the Secretary of State explain why his predecessor 663 estimated a cost of the assembly that was three times the figure that he is putting forward? Did both right hon. Gentlemen employ the same group of teenage scribblers to estimate a figure, or did the current Secretary of State merely close his eye and pick a figure? In either instance, the cost that the right hon. Gentleman is putting forward, just as much as that of his predecessor, the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood), is incredible.
§ Mr. HagueIt is hardly incredible because it is closely in line, after allowing for inflation, with the figures used by the Labour Government to cost their proposed assembly in the late 1970s. The figures that I have produced are for costing a different thing when set against the costing produced by my predecessor. I was solely concerned with costing the bureaucracy, the civil servants required and the space required to set up such an assembly. The basic cost of setting up such an assembly came to £52 million in the first year. Opposition Members have not been able to explain where they would get that money.