HC Deb 29 April 1996 vol 276 cc814-9
Mr. Curry

I beg to move amendment No. 127, in page 111, line 41, after first 'of' insert 'remuneration or'.

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael Morris)

With this, it will be convenient to discuss also Government amendment No. 128.

Mr. Curry

Paragraphs 2 and 3 of schedule 1 govern the payment of benefits by a registered social landlord to its officers and employees. The amendments clarify the position for a registered social landlord to pay remuneration, including loss of earnings, to its committee members.

We are anxious to ensure that the quality of people who serve on the committees of housing associations and now of social registered landlords is high. We draw people from different walks of life with different expertise. In order to attract better qualified people with particular expertise, we must look at the possibility of their not being unduly penalised by their willingness to serve on committees of housing associations or of registered social landlords. That is the purpose of the amendment.

Mr. Raynsford

This will not be a simple matter of my thanking the Minister for moving an amendment that we proposed in slightly different terms in Committee. The amendment raises a serious policy issue regarding the future of what was known traditionally as the voluntary housing movement. It was known by that name because housing associations were governed by voluntary committees comprising people who served unpaid. They believed in the activities of the organisation, in the same way as members of local authorities did, and believed that it was in the public interest to serve in that manner.

The Minister's comments imply that the amendment opens the door to the payment of remuneration—including, in his words, the reimbursement of expenses to such people. That is a major policy departure, and I do not believe that he should be presenting it as a small technical amendment at Report stage if he envisages a framework in which housing associations and social landlords will be empowered to pay remuneration to their committee members in future.

There has been considerable debate about the issue within the housing association movement in the past two years, when issues of governance were at the forefront of its deliberations. Although there were strong advocates of remuneration for members, there has been an overwhelming response from voluntary committee members all over the country who oppose the concept of payment. A number of people have spoken to me in extremely strong terms about how insulted they would feel if payment were introduced. They believe strongly in the voluntary principle: they give their time voluntarily out of a sense of public obligation.

We should not confuse such people with those who are appointed to quangos because they think that they can make a little bit on the side while helping the party. Many housing association committee members are particularly concerned about the measure, because they believe that it is part of an attempted "quangocratisation" of the housing association movement. The Minister will be well aware that the Nolan committee has examined housing associations, and they have every reason to believe that that sort of scrutiny is being applied to their activities. That is all the more reason for them to want to stick to the well-established principle that their work is undertaken voluntarily, for the public good and in the public interest.

The wording of amendment No. 127 is somewhat curious. It simply inserts the words "remuneration or" into a rather detailed schedule that spells out what can or cannot be paid to officers and other members of housing associations and of social landlords. As I said earlier, if it is a major new departure—which is what it appears to be—it should have been introduced at an earlier stage. It should have been discussed in Committee, and the Government should have spelt out why they were seeking to make that policy departure.

The Minister may say that the amendment is simply about compensating people for loss of earnings. However, he referred to remuneration, including compensation for loss of earnings. If that is so, he is presenting a serious policy change to the House. I think that we are owed a full explanation of why the Government have made that change. It is not in line with the views expressed by the majority of people in the housing association movement, and it certainly does not accord with the views of the National Federation of Housing Associations.

I am very surprised that the Minister has brought the measure before the House in this curious manner. I hope that he will explain it fully, and, hopefully, confirm that he does not intend to change the long-established and well respected policy of people serving as members of housing association committees in a voluntary, unpaid capacity.

Mrs. Maddock

I share some of the concerns expressed by the hon. Member for Greenwich (Mr. Raynsford). I am surprised that we are considering the amendment in this context, when it is part of a much wider debate about how people are remunerated for their services.

I think that it is important that people are able to take part in the democratic process and in decisions regarding the distribution of public money whatever their means. That is a very broad issue, and the Government intend to deal with it in only five minutes in the context of the amendment. People receive no remuneration for being school governors, although council members sometimes receive payment. People who are members of health boards, working one day a week, receive £5,000 a year. We must examine that policy issue, but we should not necessarily do so today via the amendment.

I do not agree totally with the hon. Member for Greenwich that people should serve on housing associations in a voluntary, unpaid capacity. I am sure that there are people who serve on a voluntary basis and who lose financially as a result. If people are to participate in the democratic process and to make decisions about how public money is spent, they must have the freedom to do so whatever their means.

Although I do not agree totally with the hon. Gentleman, I shall be interested to hear the Minister's response. He has ventured into an area that is much wider than remuneration for those who volunteer to work for housing association committees.

Mr. Curry

I think that the hon. Member for Greenwich is making a meal out of a snack. The amendment has no sinister purpose: we are not trying to change the ethos of the housing association movement. I constantly meet housing association committee members. I recognise their valuable work, and the fact that they perform that work voluntarily. Such people come from all walks of life, and are of all political persuasions. I have met merchant bankers who are just as heavily involved as those who work in social services, the probation service or other community-based activities.

The amendment seeks simply to make it clear that housing associations would not be acting illegally if they were to make payments for certain purposes. The proposal to pay for loss of earnings came from the National Federation of Housing Associations, although we thought it sensible to extend that somewhat.

The amendment makes remuneration possible; it requires no obligation. It is not an encouragement to pay. I would not wish to do that. Like the hon. Member for Greenwich, I value the spirit of co-operation that animates the housing association movement. However, we are trying to encourage people who may not be earning major salaries to become involved. It is not the merchant bankers who will need remuneration, but those who earn relatively small sums of money and who may find it difficult to give up their time without being paid. The amendment seeks to ensure that people in those circumstances should not be discouraged from taking an active role in the housing association movement.

The amendment is discretionary, not obligatory. It intends no ethos change, but simply to ensure that certain actions by housing associations would not be illegal if they were necessary. It is not expected to change the modus operandi of a valuable movement that is based on voluntary service.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment made: No. 128, in page 112, line 20, after first 'of' insert 'remuneration or'.—[Mr. Curry.]

Mr. Curry

I beg to move amendment No. 129, in page 121, line 1, leave out from beginning to end of line 4 and insert—

  • '( ) Any such inquiry shall be conducted by one or more persons appointed by the Corporation.
  • ( ) If one person is appointed he must be a person who is not a member or an employee of the Corporation and has not been such a member or employee within the previous five years; and if more than one person is appointed at least one of them must be such a person.'.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

With this, it will be convenient to discuss also Government amendments Nos. 130 to 133 and 74 to 76.

Mr. Curry

We now come to a more lengthy group of amendments, which none the less fulfils the obligation that I gave in Committee to reflect upon certain commitments.

Paragraphs (20) and (21) of schedule 1 enable the corporation to appoint a person to conduct an inquiry into the affairs of a registered social landlord or carry out such an inquiry. Amendment No. 129 amends paragraphs (20) and (21) to provide that the corporation cannot conduct the inquiry itself or appoint an employee to conduct it by himself. As I said in Committee, due to the curiosities of parliamentary draftsmanship, that could mean himself or herself. I would not wish the wording of the amendment to offend any feminist sentiment.

When the corporation appoints more than one person to conduct an inquiry, one person may be an employee or ex-employee of the corporation. Amendments Nos. 130 to 132 cover the arrangements to be followed when more than one person is appointed, particularly with regard to the provision of reports.

Amendment No. 133 extends the enforcement power covering requests for information under clause 30 to include the provision of information requested by a person conducting an inquiry.

Clause 29 gives the corporation power to serve a notice requiring a registered social landlord, or subsidiary, to provide information for any purpose connected with the discharge of its functions.

Amendments Nos. 74 and 76 are technical amendments, which are necessary to ensure that the corporation, or the person conducting an inquiry on its behalf, can obtain information or documents.

Amendment No. 75, which replaces clause 29(5), seeks to clarify the limits in the powers of the corporation to obtain information held by solicitors and bankers of registered social landlords.

In a nutshell, paragraphs (20) and (21) of schedule I currently enable the corporation to conduct an inquiry into a registered social landlord. In Committee, I agreed to introduce an amendment requiring the corporation to appoint at least one person who was not one of its own employees. Amendments Nos. 129 to 132 honour that commitment, and make some consequential changes to their powers.

Amendment No. 133 extends the enforcement power when someone resists a request for information, under clause 30, to cover requests by a person conducting an inquiry, to ensure that they can obtain information and documents relating to the inquiry.

Mr. Raynsford

As the Minister said, the amendments honour commitments given in Committee. In Committee, we moved an amendment to provide that the Housing Corporation shall appoint one or more persons to conduct the inquiry. At the time, the Minister found it impossible to accept our wording. I notice that he has moved an amendment worded as follows: Any such inquiry shall be conducted by one or more persons appointed by the Corporation. Clearly, his officials and the Clerks have had an immensely complicated time reversing the sequence of that wording to justify the Minister's claim that our wording was typically untidy.

Mr. Curry

The hon. Gentleman will know that the music and cadence of the clause also matter. He struck a lumpy note in Committee, and we have tried to turn it into something more melodious.

6.45 pm
Mr. Raynsford

I shall not challenge the Minister by testing his knowledge of the skills of inversion in musical composition. We are pleased that the principle in the amendment has now found its way on to the Bill. It will ensure that the person appointed by the Housing Corporation to carry out an inquiry will be independent, and that, if any such inquiry involves more than one person, at least one will be independent. We are pleased that the Government have accepted that important principle, and we welcome the amendment.

Mr. Brooke

In support of my hon. Friend the Minister I remind the House of the occasion when Sir Edward Marsh—Eddie Marsh—said to Winston Churchill, to whom he was private secretary, "We know that Shelley was a great poet because, whereas an ordinary poet would have written 'And roses wild and ivy serpentine', he wrote `And wild roses, and ivy serpentine, "' to which Winston replied, "And I suppose he would have been the greatest poet of all time if he had written, 'And wild roses and serpentine ivy'."

Mr. Curry

There is something worse. The second line of Hail to thee, blithe Spirit! Bird thou never wert, seems to me to strike the lowest point in English poetry.

Amendment agreed to

Amendments made: No. 130, in page 121, line 13, at end insert— '( ) Where the inquiry is conducted by more than one appointed person, then, if they do not agree on any matter relating to the conduct of the inquiry, including whether the inquiry should be extended, the view of the majority shall prevail; but they may each make interim reports, and shall each make a final report, and may do so jointly or separately.'. No. 131, in page 121, line 16, after first 'inquiry' insert '(or. if more than one person is so appointed, each of those persons) '. No. 132, in page 121, line 19, leave out 'the appointed person, he' and insert 'any person, the person to whom they are produced'. No. 133, in page 121, line 21, leave out from beginning to end of line 24 and insert— '( ) Section 30 (enforcement of notice to provide information, &c.) applies in relation to a notice given under this paragraph by an appointed person as it applies in relation to a notice given under section 29 by the Corporation.'.—[Mr. Curry.]

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