HC Deb 17 October 1995 vol 264 cc136-7
9. Mr. Tipping

To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Employment what representations she has received about the level of school budgets in 1996–97. [35999]

The Minister of State, Department for Education and Employment (Mr. Eric Forth)

Funding for schools in 1996–97 is currently under consideration in the public expenditure survey. As part of that process, my right hon. Friend has received the views of the local authority associations and other interested parties.

Mr. Tipping

Will the Minister listen carefully, especially to the views of parents? Does he understand their concerns and will he respond positively to them? Does he realise that parents in, say, Nottinghamshire are alarmed that there are 350 fewer teachers in schools this term than last term, and that there are real worries that there will be 2,300 fewer teachers in the east midlands next year? Should we not invest in education and the future rather than cutting expenditure?

Mr. Forth

I am not surprised that parents in the hon. Gentleman's constituency have expressed alarm at their county council's conduct of local education matters. I should have thought that they would want to examine carefully his county's disposition of surplus school places, for example, as well as the priority that it has or has not given to education, and the extent of its non-education expenditure. I hope that the hon. Gentleman is urging parents to ask their county councillors searching questions about how far the council reflects those parents' needs.

Mr. Neil Hamilton

Does my hon. Friend agree that size is not everything, and that what is done with an education budget can be just as important? Is he aware that in Japan less than 4 per cent. of public expenditure goes to education, compared with more than 5 per cent. in this country, so there is no necessary link between how much is spent on education and what is achieved with the money?

Mr. Forth

My hon. Friend is right; none of us is sizeist. The point is how effectively the money is used. There is no proven demonstrable correlation between the amount spent per pupil anywhere in the country and the educational outcomes achieved. My hon. Friend has done well to undermine and expose the glib assertion that there is necessarily a causal connection between the amount spent and educational outcomes.

Mr. MacShane

In that case, will the Minister promise the parents of Rotherham, who have seen 104 teachers sacked because of last year's education round, that spending money on education does not matter? He would not dare to come to my constituency and tell teachers and parents that class sizes, educational attainment and sacking teachers does not count. The only teacher whom they want sacked is the ex-teacher sitting beside him.

Mr. Forth

I have been to many constituencies up and down the country and said exactly that to many people, and I will continue to do so whenever I have the opportunity. [Interruption.]

Madam Speaker

Order. I want to hear what the Minister has to say.

Mr. Forth

I repeat to the hon. Gentleman what I said to his colleague, the hon. Member for Sherwood (Mr. Tipping). Parents in the hon. Gentleman's constituency should be asking those questions of those responsible for spending the money in the area. If it has been necessary—if regrettable—to sack teachers, the hon. Gentleman's questions should be put to the local education authority that has made the decisions. The authority must be accountable to parents for the expenditure in its area.

Mr. Dover

Is the Minister aware that the Government's announcement last year of a 1 per cent. increase in education spend was converted by the Labour-controlled Lancashire county council into a reduction of 5.5 per cent? Is it not the worst-possible trouble-stirring for Labour to say to schools that there will be a further cut of 8 per cent. in 1996–97 before the Budget at the end of November and before the rate support grant settlement?

Mr. Forth

Yes. My hon. Friend makes the point extremely well. LEAs must be accountable for their decisions in their localities. If the authorities are prepared to play politics in the classroom and to make cheap political points by sacking teachers or by misleading parents and electors, I am sure that my hon. Friend and all my colleagues will continue to expose such practices.