Poverty (Hansard, 6 November 1995)

§ 9. Mr. Sutcliffe
To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security how many people are now living below the official poverty line; and what was the figure in 1979. [39692]

§ The Minister for Social Security and Disabled People (Mr. Alistair Burt)
No Government of any political persuasion have ever set an official poverty line. Since 1979, average incomes have risen by more than a third after allowing for inflation. The average incomes of all family types have risen and pensioners' average incomes have increased by some 50 per cent.

§ Mr. Sutcliffe
Is it not the case that, under the Tory Government, the poor get poorer while the rich get richer, particularly Tory Ministers and Tory Members? Why is it that the poorest 10 per cent. of society have seen their real incomes drop by 17 per cent. while the top 10 per cent. in society have seen their incomes rise by 62 per cent.? Does the Minister think that that is fair?

§ Mr. Burt
There is no doubt that there has been a great disparity in incomes in recent years. One reason is the number of couples in families who are both working; the 587 other is that there has been wider dispersal of incomes and differentials. As the hon. Gentleman is sponsored by a print union, he will know all about increasing differentials.

§ Mr. Congdon
Does my hon. Friend agree that the whole concept of a poverty level is a total misnomer, particularly when Opposition Members use it as a moving target and especially when the living standards of all groups have improved significantly over the past 16 years? That is evident from the massive increase in consumer durables among all income groups, including the bottom 10 per cent. Does that not show that the concept of a poverty line is nonsense?

§ Mr. Burt
The idea that poverty can be defined accurately and translated into benefit levels and minimum wage rates is a political El Dorado. Those are not my words, but those of the hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field), and they substantiate my hon. Friend's point. It is exceptionally difficult to set such rates. However, studies show that the bottom 10 per cent. by income in the United Kingdom is not a fixed group but moves in terms of expenditure and opportunities. The best thing that can be done is to increase incentives for work and improve job opportunities—and no Government could have done more than we have to do exactly that.

§ Mr. Denham
Will the Minister confirm that among the poorest people in Britain are the perhaps 600,000 pensioners who live on less than income support rates? Will he also confirm that, in preparing his Department's contribution to pre-election tax bribes, he is banking on those pensioners not claiming the support to which they are entitled? Is Britain now really a country in which pensioner poverty has to pay for the Prime Minister's aim of tax cuts for the wealthy?

§ Mr. Burt
I welcome the hon. Gentleman and congratulate him on his rise to the Front Bench. He will be aware that, since 1988, reforms to the social security structure have directed £1 billion towards the neediest pensioners—the people about whom he is most concerned. In general, the situation of pensioners is far better than it was in Labour's last years of power. There are far fewer pensioners than ever before in the bottom decile of incomes because of the improvements that have been made to pensions, the additions, and so on. As always, however, the position of the poorest pensioners will remain a matter for concern and care by the Government. We shall have an economy designed to support them rather than one which will fall to ruins, as would be the case if the Opposition followed the plans that they have announced.