HC Deb 28 March 1995 vol 257 cc895-904
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. James Paice)

I beg to move amendment No. 124, in page 24, line 33, after `(2)' insert `Subject to subsection (4A)'.

Madam Deputy Speaker

With this, it will be convenient to discuss Government amendments Nos. 125 and 126.

Mr. Paice

Hon. Members will recall that in the White Paper published in January, which was entitled "Ending Discrimination Against Disabled People", we said that we would consider narrowly defined exceptions for positions with unusually demanding all-round requirements for fitness and stamina. Hon. Members will see from the amendments that they cover the armed forces, firefighters, prison officers and Ministry of Defence police, but they may wonder why there is no mention of ordinary police officers. The answer is that they clearly fall outside the Bill's provisions in any case, and mentioning them would simply cause confusion. They are not covered by part II of the Bill because they do not have contracts of service and, as they are not Crown servants, nor are they caught by the special provisions of clause 35.

In common with civilian police forces, members of the MOD police are sworn and attested police officers. All applicants must be able to meet prescribed medical standards relative to police duties including, of course, the carriage of arms. In addition to normal police duties within MOD establishments, MOD police officers undertake specialist duties such as personnel protection, escorting nuclear convoys and acting as marine escorts to Royal Navy submarines in naval ports. Of course, I accept that some disabled people—for example, those with severe disfigurement whom we have included within the definition—may be perfectly capable of doing these jobs. Such candidates will still be able to enter these occupations.

7.45 pm

The point, however, is that mental and physical capacity is a critical aspect of the recruitment process, and many people are rejected on the grounds of lack of fitness. Indeed, a senior Army officer is recently reported to have criticised the low level of fitness of many applicants. To be unfit is not the same thing as being disabled under our definition, but it must be clear that all judgments about the physical and mental capacity of recruits are for the recruiting authorities to make.

Mr. Wigley

How would the Minister distinguish between the work done by the armed services, firefighters and prison officers and that done by private companies such as Securicor? Will he allow Securicor to have the same derogation from the Bill, or will the provision apply only to people working in the public sector?

Mr. Paice

If the hon. Gentleman will bear with me, I shall deal with that point but, basically, the answer is that he need have no real fears—assuming that he is taking the stance that I believe him to be taking.

It would not be right for tribunals to be involved in assessing such matters where public protection is involved because that would mean that they would effectively be second-guessing and, indeed, in some cases, perhaps overruling the recruitment officers in respect of the determination whether or not someone was fit. Of course, I recognise that it is a hard decision but I believe that the groups listed should be exempted, and I feel confident that employers in other spheres will not feel that they are unreasonable exemptions.

I also have to point out to the House that, although we publicised our intention to make exemptions in our White Paper, I am not aware of any representations from disability organisations questioning that intention.

Hon. Members may ask why we do not simply use the power in the Bill as drafted which allows regulations to be made to prescribe the meaning of employment. First—I hope this answers the hon. Member for Caernarfon (Mr. Wigley)—it is right that we should make our intentions absolutely clear and place these specific occupations in the Bill. Secondly, I am advised by our legal advisers that the power afforded in clause 38 would not allow us to exempt further whole categories of occupations so the House need have no fear of this being the thin edge of the wedge. It would, however, allow us to be more specific about certain forms of employment, which may well be useful for the purpose of clarity.

During yesterday's debate on small firms, the hon. Member for Caernarfon, among others, raised the question of seasonal workers. It may well be that the power in clause 38 will allow us to deal with that issue. Since the publication of the White Paper, we have clearly considered carefully the matter of exemptions, and the group of amendments is the outcome. I hope that it is clear to the House that it is a carefully thought out and justifiable but restricted list of narrowly drawn categories which, I hope, will meet with the House's approval. I commend the amendments to the House.

Mr. Tom Clarke

The hon. Member for Caernarfon (Mr. Wigley) spoke for many Opposition Members and others when he expressed his worries. This is a serious matter and it is a considerable departure from the spirit of the debate so far. Some people might say that I am introducing contention for the sake of it, but I do so because there is a need for it.

The Government had not tabled these amendments until the end of our sittings last week. They claim that their approach to every aspect of this topic is based on consultation and on the response of the individuals involved, but there can be very little ground for suggesting that these amendments come into that category. The House has been rushed without explanation. The Minister, even in the few words that he has spoken on the amendments, has inadequately approached serious matters affecting firefighters, people in the Prison Service, and those in the armed services. The July consultation document contained nothing about the fire, prison or armed services. The Government are inviting hon. Members to agree to the blanket exclusion of those categories, and we are clearly entitled to much more explanation than we have received.

Having heard the Minister, I still do not know why those issues were not mentioned in the consultation document, the White Paper or the Bill, and why they were not mentioned in Committee. Out of the blue, as we rush through the final hours of this important measure, the House is simply asked without explanation to agree to the amendments. That runs counter to the approach of hon. Members on both sides of the House. I share the frustration of the hon. Member for Caernarfon that many of the issues have not been fully debated. That applies in relation to amendment No. 124.

We know that 37 operational firefighters were ruled as being unfit because they were insulin-dependent diabetics. We must ask whether the amendment means that those firefighters would not be covered. They rightly and successfully challenged their employers, saying that they were unreasonable, and the courts ruled in their favour. Are we being told that new legislation would mean that such people would be excluded, despite all the information that we have, all the examination of their cases, and all the experience of those men? Their cases have been shown to be acceptable to the courts, but apparently they are not acceptable to the Government. The Minister is asking us to accept his view in the absence of views from people who represent the firefighters, and indeed the firefighters themselves. That is not acceptable to the Opposition.

We believe that serving prison officers, firefighters and service men and women will not have the right to equal treatment, which we have embraced elsewhere, and which they seek in terms of re-employment after sustaining injuries in the course of their duties. For example, a building worker who damages his spine by falling off a ladder will rightly be entitled to equal treatment in seeking transfer to another post, but a firefighter with similar experience will not be entitled to that.

In prisons, a distinction exists—the Minister dealt with this by sleight of hand—between the private and public sectors. He is seeking to introduce a charter for Group 4. That is not the way to do it. I worry about what will happen if that principle is extended and introduced in another place. The Government have had to face the embarrassment over Crown immunity and awards to pregnant women officers. The matter should be dealt with more formally than has happened tonight.

The Bill's employment provisions are weak enough without the Government demanding even more rights for themselves. There is no say in what might happen in another place. No consultation has taken place. We do not know the views of the people concerned. For those reasons, among others, I am not in favour of the Government amendments and I invite the House to reject them.

Mr. Colin Pickthall (Lancashire, West)

The amendment refers to members of the fire service. Until the hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Mr. Howarth) brought it up last evening, I did not realise that I was disabled, or that I would be if I were a firefighter. Were I to contract insulin-dependent diabetes, I would be instantly removed from active service as a firefighter. At best, I would be found work in an office; at worst, I would become unemployed.

I have no idea whether being an insulin-dependent diabetic affects prison officers or members of the Ministry of Defence police. I doubt it. I recognise the Minister's difficulty in trying not to extend the Bill's provisions to cover every health problem in the universe, but the key point is that he did not refer specifically to diabetes in defining the areas to be included in the disability provision.

Diabetes is a curious condition. It does not disable, but it is counted by the fire service and by licensing authorities as though it does. It can lead to disability, but, for the most part, diabetics who are well balanced in their diabetes have a better diet. They drink and eat better things. They eat and drink less. They are generally fitter and their blood, heart and eyes are regularly checked. They are more likely to be capable of serving the public as firefighters—or whatever the service might be—than someone who does not undergo such checks and who is careless of his health patterns.

It disturbs me intensely that we have not cleared up that matter in the Bill. I hope that it will be reconsidered. The hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon did us a service yesterday by opening up the issue, which we never even considered in Committee.

Mr. Paice

With the leave of the House, Madam Deputy Speaker, I should like to say that the hon. Member for Monklands, West (Mr. Clarke) suggested that the Government had somehow been unjust in tabling the amendments late. I apologise to him that we tabled them late, but I felt it was right that the House should have a chance to debate them. I shall be open with the hon. Gentleman. We were planning to introduce the amendments in the other place, but we decided that it would be wrong to do so. Our decision was made after careful deliberation, as I said in my opening remarks. That is why we felt that it was right and proper, even at this late stage, to table the amendments. If changes occur in the House of Lords—I am not prejudging the issue, but the hon. Gentleman said that he did not know what would happen there—the amendments will come back to this House for further debate. However, we believed that it was right to deal with the matter tonight.

The hon. Gentleman suggested that we had not consulted on the subject. The statement in the White Paper is clear. It specifically said in paragraph 3.9 that the new right will cover the public and private sectors, although the Government is considering certain narrowly-defined exceptions for positions with unusually demanding all-round requirements for fitness and stamina. As I said in my opening remarks, I am not aware of any representations or questions in relation to who might be included—not that it would take a great deal of forethought to work out who might be included.

The hon. Member for Monklands, West referred to rushing through the final hours. The hon. Member for Caernarfon (Mr. Wigley) also questioned the haste with which matters were proceeding. If he is concerned about the rush through the final stages of the Bill, the hon. Member for Monklands, West should discuss that with his hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Mudie). We were trying to accommodate the wishes of the hon. Gentleman and his party. I apologise to the House for the late tabling of the amendments, but it was right that they should be proposed at this stage, and that the House should have a chance to consider them. I hope that the House will approve them.

Mr. Tom Clarke

Madam Deputy Speaker—

Madam Deputy Speaker

Order. The hon. Gentleman will need the leave of the House to speak again.

Mr. Clarke

I was about to ask for it, Madam Deputy Speaker. Your perspicacity never ceases to amaze me.

With the leave of the House, I shall respond to the Minister. His first speech was marginally better than his second—and his first speech was awful. He quoted some extremely vague comments from the White Paper and, intelligent though firefighters are, well informed though prison officers are, and well educated as the people in the other services are—Group 4 is especially well informed—I cannot help believing that it will have escaped their notice that he was talking about them.

8 pm

Mr. Paice


Mr. Clarke

I shall give way to the Minister, although I hope that he will not take too long.

Mr. Paice

I certainly shall not. If the hon. Gentleman is so concerned perhaps he will tell the House why since the White Paper was published he has not taken the opportunity to find out precisely which groups the Government were thinking of excluding.

Mr. Clarke

We spent weeks and weeks in Committee seeking precisely that information. If the Minister re-examines his speech he will find that he was distinctly unhelpful and did not encourage us to get down to the details.

I shall briefly give my reasons for asking the House to divide on the issue. First, the Government have been vague. Secondly, they have been sneaky. Thirdly, and most importantly, I do not believe that we should send to another place something that the Lords will think that the House of Commons has endorsed after full consideration. I do not believe that that would be the will of the House. It is right to make it clear to the other place that the Government rushed the matter through and we have not considered it in detail.

Those details have an overwhelming potential importance for those concerned, so for that reason and for the sake of the reputation of the House as well as in the interests of the firefighters and the people in the Prison Service and other services, I ask the House to support us in opposing the amendment.

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The House divided: Ayes 299, Noes 270.

Division No.118] [8.01 pm
Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey) Arbuthnot, James
Aitken, Rt Hon Jonathan Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)
Alexander, Richard Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv)
Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby) Ashby, David
Allason, Rupert (Torbay) Atkins, Robert
Amess, David Atkinson, David (Bour'mouth E)
Ancram, Michael Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Baker, Rt Hon Kenneth (Mole V) Fishburn, Dudley
Baker, Nicholas (North Dorset) Forman, Nigel
Baldry, Tony Forsyth, Rt Hon Michael (Stirling)
Banks, Matthew (Southport) Forth, Eric
Batiste, Spencer Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)
Bellingham, Henry Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley)
Bendall, Vivian Freeman, Rt Hon Roger
Beresford, Sir Paul French, Douglas
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas Fry, Sir Peter
Booth, Hartley Gale, Roger
Boswell, Tim Gallie, Phil
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham) Gardiner, Sir George
Bottomley, Rt Hon Virginia Garel-Jones, Rt Hon Tristan
Bowden, Sir Andrew Garnier, Edward
Bowis, John Gill, Christopher
Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes Gillan, Cheryl
Brandreth, Gyles Goodlad, Rt Hon Alastair
Brazier, Julian Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles
Bright, Sir Graham Gorman, Mrs Teresa
Brooke, Rt Hon Peter Gorst, Sir John
Brown, M (Brigg & Cl'thorpes) Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Browning, Mrs Angela Greenway, John (Ryedale)
Bruce, Ian (Dorset) Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N)
Budgen, Nicholas Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn
Burns, Simon Hague, William
Burt, Alistair Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archibald
Butcher, John Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)
Butler, Peter Hanley, Rt Hon Jeremy
Butterfill, John Hannam, Sir John
Carlisle, John (Luton North) Harris, David
Carlisle, Sir Kenneth (Lincoln) Haselhurst, Alan
Carrington, Matthew Hawkins, Nick
Carttiss, Michael Hawksley, Warren
Cash, William Heald, Oliver
Channon, Rt Hon Paul Heath, Rt Hon Sir Edward
Churchill, Mr Heathcoat-Amory, David
Clappison, James Hendry, Charles
Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford) Hicks, Robert
Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Ru'clif) Higgins, Rt Hon Sir Terence
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hill, James (Southampton Test)
Coe, Sebastian Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas (G'tham)
Colvin, Michael Horam, John
Congdon, David Hordern, Rt Hon Sir Peter
Conway, Derek Howard, Rt Hon Michael
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st) Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford)
Coombs, Simon (Swindon) Howell, Sir Ralph (N Norfolk)
Cope, Rt Hon Sir John Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W)
Cormack, Sir Patrick Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W)
Couchman, James Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne)
Cran, James Hunter, Andrew
Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire) Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas
Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon) Jack, Michael
Davies, Quentin (Stamford) Jackson, Robert (Wantage)
Davis, David (Boothferry) Jenkin, Bernard
Day, Stephen Jessel, Toby
Devlin, Tim Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey
Dorrell, Rt Hon Stephen Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James Jones, Robert B (W Hertfdshr)
Dover, Den Jopling, Rt Hon Michael
Duncan, Alan Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine
Duncan-Smith, Iain Key, Robert
Dunn, Bob King, Rt Hon Tom
Durant, Sir Anthony Kirkhope, Timothy
Dykes, Hugh Knapman, Roger
Eggar, Rt Hon Tim Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)
Elletson, Harold Knight, Greg (Derby N)
Emery, Rt Hon Sir Peter Knox, Sir David
Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield) Kynoch, George (Kincardine)
Evans, Jonathan (Brecon) Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley) Lamont, Rt Hon Norman
Evans, Roger (Monmouth) Lang, Rt Hon Ian
Evennett, David Lawrence, Sir Ivan
Faber, David Legg, Barry
Fabricant, Michael Leigh, Edward
Fenner, Dame Peggy Lennox-Boyd, Sir Mark
Field, Barry (Isle of Wight) Lester, Jim (Broxtowe)
Lidington, David Shephard, Rt Hon Gillian
Lightbown, David Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)
Lilley, Rt Hon Peter Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)
Luff, Peter Sims, Roger
Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas Skeet, Sir Trevor
MacGregor, Rt Hon John Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick)
MacKay, Andrew Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)
Maclean, David Soames, Nicholas
McLoughlin, Patrick Speed, Sir Keith
McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick Spencer, Sir Derek
Madel, Sir David Spicer, Sir James (W Dorset)
Maitland, Lady Olga Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)
Major, Rt Hon John Spink, Dr Robert
Malone, Gerald Spring, Richard
Mans, Keith Sproat, Iain
Marland, Paul Squire, Robin (Hornchurch)
Marlow, Tony Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John
Marshall, John (Hendon S) Steen, Anthony
Martin, David (Portsmouth S) Stephen, Michael
Mates, Michael Stern, Michael
Mawhinney, Rt Hon Dr Brian Stewart, Allan
Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick Streeter, Gary
Mellor, Rt Hon David Sumberg, David
Merchant, Piers Sweeney, Walter
Mills, Iain Sykes, John
Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling) Tapsell, Sir Peter
Mitchell, Sir David (NW Hants) Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Moate, Sir Roger Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Monro, Sir Hector Taylor, Sir Teddy (Southend, E)
Montgomery, Sir Fergus Temple-Morris, Peter
Moss, Malcolm Thomason, Roy
Nelson, Anthony Thompson, Sir Donald (C'er V)
Neubert, Sir Michael Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Newton, Rt Hon Tony Thurnham, Peter
Nicholls, Patrick Townend, John (Bridlington)
Nicholson, David (Taunton) Townsend, Cyril D (Bexl'yh'th)
Nicholson, Emma (Devon West) Tracey, Richard
Norris, Steve Tredinnick, David
Oppenheim, Phillip Trend, Michael
Ottaway, Richard Trotter, Neville
Page, Richard Twinn, Dr Ian
Paice, James Vaughan, Sir Gerard
Patnick, Sir Irvine Viggers, Peter
Patten, Rt Hon John Waldegrave, Rt Hon William
Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey Walden, George
Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth Walker, Bill (N Tayside)
Pickles, Eric Waller, Gary
Porter, Barry (Wirral S) Ward, John
Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Portillo, Rt Hon Michael Waterson, Nigel
Powell, William (Corby) Watts, John
Rathbone, Tim Wells, Bowen
Redwood, Rt Hon John Wheeler, Rt Hon Sir John
Renton, Rt Hon Tim Whitney, Ray
Richards, Rod Whittingdale, John
Rifkind, Rt Hon Malcolm Widdecombe, Ann
Robathan, Andrew Wiggin, Sir Jerry
Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn Willetts, David
Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S) Wilshire, David
Robinson, Mark (Somerton) Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)
Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne) Winterton, Nicholas (Macc'f'ld)
Rowe, Andrew (Mid Kent) Wolfson, Mark
Rumbold, Rt Hon Dame Angela Wood, Timothy
Ryder, Rt Hon Richard Yeo, Tim
Sackville, Tom Young, Rt Hon Sir George
Sainsbury, Rt Hon Sir Timothy
Scott, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas Tellers for the Ayes:
Shaw, David (Dover) Mr. Sydney Chapman and
Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey) Mr. Michael Bates.
Abbott, Ms Diane Alton, David
Adams, Mrs Irene Anderson, Ms Janet (Ros'dale)
Ainger, Nick Armstrong, Hilary
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE) Ashton, Joe
Allen, Graham Austin-Walker, John
Banks, Tony (Newham NW) Foster, Rt Hon Derek
Barnes, Harry Foster, Don (Bath)
Barron, Kevin Foulkes, George
Bayley, Hugh Fraser, John
Beckett, Rt Hon Margaret Fyfe, Maria
Beith, Rt Hon A J Galbraith, Sam
Bell, Stuart Galloway, George
Benn, Rt Hon Tony Gapes, Mike
Bennett, Andrew F Garrett, John
Benton, Joe George, Bruce
Bermingham, Gerald Gerrard, Neil
Berry, Roger Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John
Betts, Clive Godman, Dr Norman A
Blair, Rt Hon Tony Godsiff, Roger
Blunkett, David Graham, Thomas
Boateng, Paul Grant, Bernie (Tottenham)
Bradley, Keith Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Bray, Dr Jeremy Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E) Grocott, Bruce
Brown, N (N'c'tle upon Tyne E) Gunnell, John
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon) Hain, Peter
Burden, Richard Hall, Mike
Byers, Stephen Hanson, David
Callaghan, Jim Hardy, Peter
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge) Harman, Ms Harriet
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE) Harvey, Nick
Campbell-Savours, D N Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy
Canavan, Dennis Henderson, Doug
Cann, Jamie Heppell, John
Carlile, Alexander (Montgomery) Hill, Keith (Streatham)
Chidgey, David Hinchliffe, David
Chisholm, Malcolm Hodge, Margaret
Church, Judith Hogg, Norman (Cumbernauld)
Clark, Dr David (South Shields) Home Robertson, John
Clarke, Eric (Midlothian) Hood, Jimmy
Clarke, Tom (Monklands W) Hoon, Geoffrey
Clelland, David Howarth, George (Knowsley North)
Coffey, Ann Howells, Dr. Kim (Pontypridd)
Cohen, Harry Hoyle, Doug
Cook, Frank (Stockton N) Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Cook, Robin (Livingston) Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)
Corbett, Robin Hughes, Roy (Newport E)
Corbyn, Jeremy Hughes, Simon (Southwark)
Corston, Jean Hutton, John
Cox, Tom Illsley, Eric
Cummings, John Ingram, Adam
Cunliffe, Lawrence Jackson, Helen (Shef'ld, H)
Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE) Janner, Greville
Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr John Jones, Barry (Alyn and D'side)
Dafis, Cynog Jones, Ieuan Wyn (Ynys Mon)
Dalyell, Tam Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)
Darling, Alistair Jones, Lynne (B'ham S O)
Davidson, Ian Jones, Martyn (Clwyd, SW)
Davies, Bryan (Oldham C'tral) Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli) Jowell, Tessa
Davies, Ron (Caerphilly) Keen, Alan
Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'dge H'l) Kennedy, Charles (Ross,C&S)
Denham, John Kennedy, Jane (Lpool Brdgn)
Dewar, Donald Khabra, Piara S
Dixon, Don Kilfoyle, Peter
Dobson, Frank Kirkwood, Archy
Donohoe, Brian H Lewis, Terry
Dowd, Jim Liddell, Mrs Helen
Dunnachie, Jimmy Litherland, Robert
Eagle, Ms Angela Livingstone, Ken
Eastham, Ken Lloyd, Tony (Stretford)
Enright, Derek Llwyd, Elfyn
Etherington, Bill Loyden, Eddie
Evans, John (St Helens N) Lynne, Ms Liz
Ewing, Mrs Margaret McAvoy, Thomas
Fatchett, Derek McCartney, Ian
Faulds, Andrew McCrea, The Reverend William
Field, Frank (Birkenhead) Macdonald, Calum
Fisher, Mark McFall, John
Flynn, Paul McKelvey, William
Forsythe, Clifford (S Antrim) Mackinlay, Andrew
McLeish, Henry Rogers, Allan
Maclennan, Robert Rooker, Jeff
McMaster, Gordon Rooney, Terry
McNamara, Kevin Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
MacShane, Denis Rowlands, Ted
McWilliam, John Ruddock, Joan
Madden, Max Salmond, Alex
Maddock, Diana Sedgemore, Brian
Mandelson, Peter Sheerman, Barry
Marek, Dr John Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert
Marshall, Jim (Leicester, S) Shore, Rt Hon Peter
Martin, Michael J (Springburn) Short, Clare
Martlew, Eric Simpson, Alan
Maxton, John Skinner, Dennis
Meacher, Michael Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)
Meale, Alan Smith, Chris (Isl'ton S & F'sbury)
Michael, Alun Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley) Snape, Peter
Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll & Bute) Soley, Clive
Milburn, Alan Spearing, Nigel
Miller, Andrew Spellar, John
Moonie, Dr Lewis Squire, Rachel (Dunfermline W)
Morgan, Rhodri Steel, Rt Hon Sir David
Morley, Elliot Stevenson, George
Morris, Rt Hon Alfred (Wy'nshawe) Stott, Roger
Morris, Estelle (B'ham Yardley) Strang, Dr. Gavin
Morris, Rt Hon John (Aberavon) Straw, Jack
Mowlam, Marjorie Sutcliffe, Gerry
Mullin, Chris Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)
Murphy, Paul Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon Thompson, Jack (Wansbeck)
O'Brien, Mike (N W'kshire) Timms, Stephen
O'Brien, William (Normanton) Tipping, Paddy
O'Hara, Edward Touhig, Don
Olner, Bill Tyler, Paul
O'Neill, Martin Vaz, Keith
Orme, Rt Hon Stanley Walker, Rt Hon Sir Harold
Parry, Robert Wallace, James
Pearson, Ian Walley, Joan
Pendry, Tom Wardell, Gareth (Gower)
Pickthall, Colin Wareing, Robert N
Pike, Peter L Watson, Mike
Pope, Greg Welsh, Andrew
Powell, Ray (Ogmore) Wicks, Malcolm
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle) Wigley, Dafydd
Primarolo, Dawn Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Sw'n W)
Quin, Ms Joyce Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen)
Radice, Giles Wilson, Brian
Randall, Stuart Wise, Audrey
Raynsford, Nick Worthington, Tony
Redmond, Martin Wray, Jimmy
Reid, Dr John Young, David (Bolton SE)
Rendel, David
Robertson, George (Hamilton) Tellers for the Noes:
Robinson, Geoffrey (Co'try NW) Mr. George Mudie and
Roche, Mrs Barbara Mr. Dennis Turner.

Question accordingly agreed to.

Amendments made: No. 125, in page 25, line 2, at end insert— '(4A) Part II does not apply to service—

  1. (a) as a member of the Ministry of Defence Police; or
  2. (b) as a prison officer.
(4B) Part II does not apply to service as a member of a fire brigade who is or may be required by his terms of service to engage in fire fighting. (4C) It is hereby declared (for the avoidance of doubt) that Part II does not apply to service in any of the naval, military or air forces of the Crown.'.

No. 126, in line 7, at end insert— ' "fire brigade" means a fire brigade maintained in pursuance of the Fire Services Act 1947; Ministry of Defence Police" means the force established under section 1 of the Ministry of Defence Police Act 1987; prison officer" means a person who is a prison officer within the meaning of section 127 of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994, apart from those who are—

  1. (a) custody officers within the meaning of Part I of the Act of 1994; or
  2. (b) prisoner custody officers within the meaning of Part IV of the Criminal Justice Act 1991 or Chapter II or III of Part VIII of the Act of 1994;'.—[Mr. Hague.]

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