§ 8. Mr. Jacques ArnoldTo ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what percentage of the bottom decile of income distribution had (a) a fridge-freezer, (b) a car and (c) a video recorder in 1979; and how many have them currently. [12995]
§ Mr. BurtNinety-eight per cent. of households in the bottom decile of income have a fridge or fridge-freezer now, compared with 88 per cent. in 1979; 53 per cent. now have a car, compared with 40 per cent. in 1979; and 65 per cent. have video recorders, which very few possessed in 1979.
§ Mr. ArnoldDoes my hon. Friend agree that if the hon. Member for Greenwich (Mr. Raynsford), who was not here to ask Question 7, had been present in the Chamber he would have learnt a great deal from the answer that the Minister has just given, which spoke for itself about the average income of people in that decile? Will my hon. Friend inform the House what has happened to the average incomes of people in that decile and what proportion of that decile is made up of pensioners?
§ Mr. BurtThere are a couple of important things about the bottom decile of income. It is always there: there is always a bottom 10 per cent. of income, no matter when or where we are. What matters is its composition. Since 1979, pensioners as a group have tended to come out of that decile, partly due to the increased amount of benefit from pensions and what has been achieved in that respect. For the bottom decile as a whole, housing costs have been at a standstill in relation to income. As we all know, the bottom decile is not always the same people. The Rowntree report showed that a third of those in the bottom decile in 1990 had moved up to the next decile or even the decile above that within two years.
§ Mr. BattleIt is tempting to ask the Minister to spell out how many fridge-freezers, cars and videos the top 10 per cent. have each. Is not the truth of the matter that under the Government the incomes of the bottom decile have fallen by 17 per cent. while those of the top 10 per cent. have increased by 63 per cent.? Where is the social justice in that? Would it not be better to give people real job opportunities rather than leave them to waste?
§ Mr. BurtI do not think that there is any argument between the two of us or within the House on the last point. The importance of having jobs in the economy and the fact that jobs help those in poverty is paramount. I wish that, instead of just saying that, the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends would support some of the measures 9 that we have taken over the years to increase the opportunity of jobs for everyone rather than carping about them, as they have so often done.
§ Mr. ThurnhamIs my hon. Friend aware that more than half of those who declare no income at all spend above the average for all other income groups? Does that not prove that there is a lot of nonsense in some of the low income statistics?
§ Mr. BurtMy hon. Friend is perfectly right. Some 750,000 of the bottom income decile group report nil or negative incomes; yet half of them spend more than the average for the population as a whole. The whole set of statistics is capable of a variety of interpretations. The important point for the House is that there is no fixed group which always stays in the same place. People move throughout the income deciles according to what is happening in their lives. For the Government, the important thing is to make sure that the work that we do to increase the availability of jobs is successful. The fact that Britain has the most successful record in the European Community in terms of getting people back into work in the past couple of years is one that we should all welcome.