HC Deb 28 June 1995 vol 262 cc943-52
Mrs. Maria Fyfe (Glasgow, Maryhill)

I beg to move amendment No. 10, in page 25, line 10, after first 'the', insert 'relevant'.

Madam Deputy Speaker

With this, it will be convenient to discuss also amendment No. 11, in page 25, line 11, at end add— '(3) SEPA shall designate areas ("Flood prevention plan areas") in respect of which planning authorities are to prepare flood prevention plans drawn up in consultation with SEPA.'.

Mrs. Fyfe

Amendment No. 10 is a simple amendment which ensures clarity, and I hope that the Minister will have no difficulty with it.

Amendment No. 11 is more substantial, but it is equally straightforward. It calls for a step that could be of immense benefit in the future. It requires that SEPA should have a duty to designate areas known as flood prevention plan areas, in respect of which planning authorities would have to prepare flood prevention plans, drawn up in consultation with SEPA.

Thanks to the efforts of my hon. Friends in Committee, the Government have moved slightly, and that is welcome. This further step is one that the Government must surely see the sense of. As the World Wide Fund for Nature has pointed out, activities that need planning consent may create a risk of flooding, and SEPA should be in a position to advise the planning authority so that adequate prevention can be undertaken.

The Government have given SEPA the function of collecting information on flood risk, but they have not given it the duty to assess flood risk and provide that information to the local authorities. If that were done, the logical and necessary step would be for the relevant planning authorities to draw up flood prevention plans in consultation with SEPA, benefiting from the advice and knowledge it had gathered.

Hon. Members know very well the immense hardship suffered by households when the Clyde, the White Cart and the Kelvin flooded last winter. The hon. Member for Tayside, North (Mr. Walker), who I am surprised is not present because he has taken up many flooding issues, suffered similar miseries in his constituency some time earlier.

In the flooding last winter, millions of pounds' worth of damage occurred, and repairs are still going on. Families lost their hard-earned furnishings, which cost thousands to replace—money that all too many of them do not have to spend.

The River Kelvin walkway, which is in my constituency as well as that of my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Galloway) is damaged, and is impassable at certain points. The Scottish exhibition and conference centre was flooded, together with the Clydeside expressway, causing traffic chaos around Glasgow. Support work is still needed at Broomielaw. The water overflowing from the Kelvin flooded an old railway tunnel under Kelvingrove park and flooded the Argyll railway line. That line is still closed, and is costing millions in repairs and lost revenue for the railways.

There is also the human cost. The appalling plight of the residents of Ferguslie park and other areas was well documented at the time, and I have no doubt that my hon. Friends will be ready to remind the House what a dreadful tragedy this was for so many people. Most tragically of all, some people drowned in the floods.

Surely it is worth taking the care envisaged in amendment No. 11 to ensure that we are as prepared as possible. We cannot stop nature doing its worst on occasions, but that is no excuse for not doing what we can. That should not stop us from making intelligent plans to foresee the possibilities and to do all in our power to prevent the ill consequences that I have described, to lessen the impact when full prevention is not possible.

If the Minister is concerned about value for money, the case for the amendment is unanswerable. It could be the hap'orth of tar that saves the ship.

Mr. Galbraith

As my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Maryhill (Mrs. Fyfe) said, part of the impetus behind the clause was provided by the extensive flooding that took place last December. Normal rainfall in the Glasgow area for the month of December is about 7 in to 8 in, yet, in 48 hours last December, 15 in fell—almost twice the normal monthly rainfall in two days.

The result was extensive flooding, both in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Paisley, South (Mr. McMaster) and in mine. The River Kelvin overflowed its banks, as did its tributaries the Luggie and the Glazert, and so did the Allender, in another part of my constituency. As a result, 250 families had to evacuate their homes, 400 jobs were lost in local businesses, and business itself lost millions of pounds. Most regrettably, there was also a death in my area.

Flooding is not new in my constituency, but it has never been so severe before. Water control experts to whom I have spoken say, although I am not sure how strongly they would maintain the case, that there may be a climatic change which means that the flooding is likely to happen again. We have been told that such an event would occur only once in a hundred years, but people now say that it may happen again next year. That is what my constituents are worried about.

I have been involved when flooding has taken place in the past, and the first problem that faced us was finding out who was responsible for dealing with the flood. The situation is especially complicated in my area, because many people are involved. First, there are all the riparian owners with flood defences; there are private owners such as the Caledonian estate, and there are local authorities. Farmers, too, are involved, so the Agriculture and Fisheries Department at the Scottish Office also has a role. On top of all that, regional council has the permissive powers on flood defences.

Then there is another layer in my constituency. Under successive land drainage Acts since 1941, the Scottish Office has had a direct responsibility. That set-up started when Tom Johnson was Secretary of State. There is therefore a rather complex division of responsibility, and one of the problems is that it is difficult to get anything moving, because, when we try to do anything about the floods, everyone passes the problem off to someone else.

The situation is further complicated by the mechanisms we need to use to build flood defences. First, quite correctly, we need a proper study. For my area, that would cost £500,000. Once we had done that, it would take some time to raise a flood prevention order. In the constituency of the hon. Member for Tayside, North (Mr. Walker), that took four years. Once that happened, we would still have to find the money for the flood prevention, which in my constituency would cost about £5 million.

As a result of pressure from my hon. Friend the Member for Paisley, South and others, including myself, since the recent flooding, the Government introduced a new clause, clause 25, which I welcome. It gives SEPA powers to assess flood risk and make information available to local authorities on request. That is welcome, because it will prevent the problem from recurring in other areas, so it is a major step forward. There is no doubt that houses in my area were built on the flood plain, and proper planning should have prevented that. I hope that clause 25 will go some way towards dealing with that, and I thank the Government for it.

As I have said, the problem in my constituency is that houses have been built on flood plains. Some of them, in Summerfield for example, had just been built, and the people had been in them only three weeks when they were flooded. Those people are now looking for action. They have their houses there now, and some have not been back in them since December. They need flood prevention plans.

There is an urgent need to get things rolling, but everyone passes the problem on to everyone else, and no one has a duty. The lead authority is now the regional council, but responsibility will fall on the unitary authority, which in my constituency will be East Dumbartonshire. However, the powers are merely permissive, and we require statutory powers. Our amendment seeks to give SEPA the statutory powers to designate flood prevention plan areas, after which it would be the local authority's duty to produce plans.

Then there is the question of money—but we can argue and fight about that later. Now we must get the ball rolling, because, whatever anyone says, the current system does not work. It has not produced flood defences for my constituents or for many others. We need to change the system. Our amendment would do that, and I commend it to the Government.

6.45 pm
Mr. Gordon McMaster (Paisley, South)

I support my hon. Friends the Members for Glasgow, Maryhill (Mrs. Fyfe) and for Strathkelvin and Bearsden (Mr. Galbraith), and I support amendment No. 11 in particular. All of us who witnessed at first hand the floods in Strathclyde in December suddenly realised how devastating floods can be. In my constituency, I saw people having to leave their homes by the upstairs windows—people who had taken their whole lives to build up a home and buy their furniture, and who then had to watch the furniture float away while they realised that their insurance cover was inadequate. Not only those people's homes, but their lives, were devastated.

Now that the television cameras have gone and the media interest has disappeared, it is worth pointing out that many hundreds of those families have still not returned to their homes. In Paisley, the great focus of attention was on Ferguslie park area, because that is an area of multiple deprivation, but in my constituency there are four other sites where an equal number of homes were affected but which received much less publicity. Paisley south end, the Park avenue area, the Kilpatrick estate area and Collier street in Johnstone were all affected.

The causes of the floods in Ferguslie park, in the south end of Paisley and in the other three places were all different. It is worth remembering that, because, although the devastation is the same for all the people affected, different solutions are needed. We need a way of co-ordinating flood prevention so that we do not simply move the flood waters from one area to another. For example, flood prevention in the Park avenue area, which is at the top of a hill, may simply move the trouble down to the south end and cause a problem there. So there must be co-ordination.

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Strathkelvin and Bearsden on the work he did in Committee to ensure that the case was put, in the interests not only of his constituents but of those of other Members, who have also been flooded before—and, indeed, in the interests of those who have not yet been flooded but who may meet the same fate unless we amend the Bill.

My hon. Friend hit the issue precisely on the head. I have asked the Scottish Office many parliamentary questions, and there has been much correspondence with Strathclyde regional council. The Scottish Office's answers tell us that Strathclyde has permissive powers to take action, but that, in the past 20 years, it has sought only one flood prevention scheme, which is now in place.

That may be true, but if so, it merely reinforces the fact that the current system does not work. The Scottish Office has a duty to introduce a system that does work. That is not a party political view or a petty point-scoring exercise.

I introduced the Natural Disasters (Scotland) Bill, which deals with flooding. It has been blocked by the Government, but it has been supported by the hon. Member for Tayside, North (Mr. Walker), by Liberal Democrat and Scottish National party Members, and by Labour Members. Flood prevention must be dealt with. The amendment is eminently sensible, because it suggests that we should move away from permissive powers and towards duties. Until that happens, nothing will be done to put flood prevention schemes on the ground where they are needed.

Our constituents who were flooded in December 1994, many of them with inadequate insurance and many just above the level of income support, which means that they do not qualify for community care grants and may not be entitled to social fund loans, will have to consider over the next few months moving back into their homes. Week after week, they come to me, to my hon. Friend the Member for Paisley, North (Mrs. Adams) and to other hon. Members involved, saying, "We don't want to buy new furniture and move back into our houses when nothing has been done to prevent floods this winter."

Who can blame people for making that point? Their lives have been devastated once. They have to accept what has happened, but they want to know that it cannot happen again. They therefore need some means of making sure that someone has not a permissive power, but a duty, to ensure that there is adequate flood prevention.

The law is further complicated by the fact that, in many areas, it is notoriously difficult to trace riparian owners, and notoriously difficult to find out who is responsible for flood prevention. If the amendment is passed, that would be absolutely clear, and it would make a real difference to the lives of the flood victims we represent.

Mr. Wallace

I support the amendment. I acknowledge the work done by the hon. Members for Paisley, South (Mr. McMaster) and for Strathkelvin and Bearsden (Mr. Galbraith) in response to the plight of their constituents following the appalling floods last December.

During the recent campaign for the unitary authority elections in Scotland, together with my right hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil (Mr. Ashdown) and our local candidates, I met some of the flood victims. Until I met people whose lives had been completely devastated by what had happened, it had not been brought home to me what an intrusion flooding was. What came over to me more than anything else in some cases was that people were afraid ever to go back into their houses, no matter how much drying up there had been, no matter whether they had new carpets, and no matter whether their purchases had been insured.

Housing developments have been allowed in areas that have, historically, been known to have flood problems. Yet the statutory framework for effectively tackling the problem has not been in place, and if there has been a permissive power, it has not been exercised. The amendment is appropriate, because it will help to focus attention on areas with flood problems throughout Scotland, and it will impose a duty.

One can learn something from natural disasters, rather than having the experience visited on others. Hon. Members representing other constituencies should not have to make similar speeches in future. Surely now we have an opportunity to legislate, and we should take advantage of that.

Sir Hector Monro

I am glad to respond to the debate, in which we have heard speeches by the hon. Members for Glasgow, Maryhill (Mrs. Fyfe), for Paisley, South (Mr. McMaster), for Strathkelvin and Bearsden (Mr. Galbraith) and for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Wallace), all of whom have highlighted the dramatic flooding last winter in the Clyde area.

As the hon. Member for Strathkelvin and Bearsden said, there was quite exceptional rainfall, which caused extensive damage, especially to housing in low-lying areas. Like all the hon. Members I have mentioned, I felt distraught about what happened to the householders who lost their belongings and a great deal more. Naturally, we should like to see the problem reduced if possible.

I wonder, however, whether we are going down the right route, because, as all hon. Members have said, permissive powers are already in place. Hon. Members are always saying that we should give local authorities powers, and then give them the chance to carry them out. The regional authorities have had these powers throughout their existence, and although they have failed to carry them out, it is wrong to start to look at the Government to try to force them to do what they ought to do of their own volition.

As several hon. Members have willingly conceded, we have added to the Bill clause 25, which gives the Scottish Environment Protection Agency the function to assess, as far as it considers appropriate, the risk of flooding in any area of Scotland. It also requires the agency to provide planning authorities, on request, with advice on flood risk, based on all the information available to it.

Opposition Members have said, rightly, that there is some duplication and uncertainty. Come next April, we shall be dealing with unitary councils, which will be responsible for planning and flood prevention, and which will have every other local authority responsibility. That in itself will make things a great deal easier than they are at present. The power to carry out surveys to assess flood risk, which follows automatically from the general power under the Rivers (Prevention of Pollution) (Scotland) Act 1951, will greatly assist SEPA in assembling information.

I want to bring home to Opposition Members the fact that, in March this year, having taken account of the serious flooding last winter in the Clyde area and the year before in Tayside, we produced a national planning policy guideline, "Planning and Flooding", which rehearsed many of the arguments and referred to the rainfall statistics. It also said what local authorities should be prepared to do at times when flooding was possible. We asked for comments on the draft planning policy guideline by May this year, and the final version will be available shortly. It will give all the information that local authorities and planning authorities could conceivably want when taking action.

Local authorities must be prepared to take action themselves; they have, rightly, permissive powers, and they are backed up by Government grants for flood prevention. I was a local authority councillor for long enough to know that one tends to put on one side things that are less likely to happen. Flood prevention, which does not look very exciting to the electorate until they are flooded out, tends to get put on one side. Local authorities must give flood prevention a high priority if SEPA's advice is that flooding is a serious risk.

Clause 25 is important, in that it brings home to the planning authority, which will be the new council, the fact that, if it wants advice on flooding, it must go to SEPA. That is exceptionally important when new housing estates are about to be built, in view of the disastrous results of the floods in Ferguslie and other places in the west of Scotland.

Clause 25 is a constructive way forward. SEPA will give advice to the planning authority before it gives approval. It is important to realise that, if SEPA's advice is that the area in question is dangerous, and if the planning authority still wants to go ahead, the application must go the Secretary of State, and, if necessary, he will call it in.

Mrs. Fyfe

Is the Minister telling the House that he is utterly confident that clause 25, unamended, will guarantee that everything possible that can be done will be done to prevent the tragedies, loss of business and upset that were visited on people last winter?

7 pm

Sir Hector Monro

Nobody can honestly give any guarantee on the outcome of flooding when something like 60 mm of rain falls in 24 hours, as happened last winter. The Bill gives the local authority the opportunity to take the right steps. It can get advice from SEPA and has powers itself to deal with flood prevention; that is how it should be.

Local authorities have only to ask SEPA for its advice and then take action, backed up, as I have said before, by grants from the Scottish Office. The responsibility is on the local authorities, and they ought to accept it willingly. They are always asking for more powers; here is one ready for them.

What I have said shows that the Government, especially with the new planning guidelines, take the matter very seriously. I hope that local authorities will implement the guidelines right away when they receive the final draft in early or mid-summer. We can then start to prevent the construction of houses in dangerous places and, I hope, take steps to prevent flooding through appropriate action.

The ball is very much in the court of the local authorities. They have the powers and the technical advice from SEPA, and ought to be able to take appropriate action in their areas. I ask the Opposition to withdraw the amendment.

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The House divided: Ayes 216, Noes 261.

Division No.182 [7.00 pm
Adams, Mrs Irene Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Ainger, Nick Cann, Jamie
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE) Carlile, Alexander (Montgomery)
Allen, Graham Chidgey, David
Alton, David Chisholm, Malcolm
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E) Church, Judith
Armstrong, Hilary Clapham, Michael
Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy Clark, Dr David (South Shields)
Austin-Walker, John Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)
Barnes, Harry Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)
Barron, Kevin Clelland, David
Battle, John Clwyd, Mrs Ann
Bayley, Hugh Coffey, Ann
Beckett, Rt Hon Margaret Cohen, Harry
Bennett, Andrew F Connarty, Michael
Bermingham, Gerald Cook, Frank (Stockton N)
Berry, Roger Cook, Robin (Livingston)
Betts, Clive Corbett, Robin
Boateng, Paul Cousins, Jim
Bray, Dr Jeremy Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE)
Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E) Dafis, Cynog
Brown, N (N'c' tle upon Tyne E) Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)
Burden, Richard Denham, John
Byers, Stephen Dewar, Donald
Caborn, Richard Dixon, Don
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge) Dobson, Frank
Dowd, Jim McMaster, Gordon
Eagle, Ms Angela MacShane, Denis
Eastham, Ken Maddock, Diana
Etherington, Bill Mahon, Alice
Evans, John (St Helens N) Marek, Dr John
Fatchett, Derek Marshall, David (Shettleston)
Field, Frank (Birkenhead) Marshall, Jim (Leicester, S)
Fisher, Mark Martin, Michael J (Springburn)
Flynn, Paul Meale, Alan
Foster, Rt Hon Derek Michael, Alun
Foster, Don (Bath) Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)
Foulkes, George Milburn, Alan
Fraser, John Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)
Fyfe, Maria Moonie, Dr Lewis
Galbraith, Sam Morgan, Rhodri
Galloway, George Morley, Elliot
Gapes, Mike Morris, Estelle (B'ham Yardley)
Garrett, John Morris, Rt Hon John (Aberavon)
Gerrard, Neil Mullin, Chris
Godman, Dr Norman A Murphy, Paul
Godsiff, Roger Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon
Golding, Mrs Llin O'Brien, Mike (N W'kshire)
Gordon, Mildred O'Brien, William (Normanton)
Graham, Thomas O'Hara, Edward
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend) Olner, Bill
Grocott, Bruce O'Neill, Martin
Gunnell, John Orme, Rt Hon Stanley
Hain, Peter Parry, Robert
Hanson, David Pearson, Ian
Harman, Ms Harriet Pike, Peter L
Harvey, Nick Powell, Ray (Ogmore)
Henderson, Doug Prentice, Bridget (Lew'm E)
Heppell, John Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Hill, Keith (Streatham) Prescott, Rt Hon John
Hinchliffe, David Primarolo, Dawn
Hodge, Margaret Purchase, Ken
Hoey, Kate Quin, Ms Joyce
Hogg, Norman (Cumbernauld) Radice, Giles
Hood, Jimmy Randall, Stuart
Hoon, Geoffrey Raynsford, Nick
Howarth, George (Knowsley North) Reid, Dr John
Howells, Dr. Kim (Pontypridd) Rendel, David
Hoyle, Doug Robertson, George (Hamilton)
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N) Robinson, Geoffrey (Co'try NW)
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) Roche, Mrs Barbara
Hughes, Simon (Southwark) Rooker, Jeff
Hutton, John Rooney, Terry
Illsley, Eric Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Jackson, Glenda (H'stead) Rowlands, Ted
Jackson, Helen (Shef'ld, H) Ruddock, Joan
Janner, Greville Salmond, Alex
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C) Sedgemore, Brian
Jones, Lynne (B'ham S O) Sheerman, Barry
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd, SW) Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert
Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham) Shore, Rt Hon Peter
Jowell, Tessa Short, Clare
Keen, Alan Simpson, Alan
Khabra, Piara S Skinner, Dennis
Kilfoyle, Peter Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Kirkwood, Archy Soley, Clive
Lestor, Joan (Eccles) Spearing, Nigel
Lewis, Terry Spellar, John
Liddell, Mrs Helen Steel, Rt Hon Sir David
Livingstone, Ken Strang, Dr. Gavin
Lloyd, Tony (Stretford) Straw, Jack
Llwyd, Elfyn Sutcliffe, Gerry
Loyden, Eddie Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)
Lynne, Ms Liz Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
McAllion, John Timms, Stephen
McAvoy, Thomas Tipping, Paddy
McCartney, Robert (North Down) Touhig, Don
Macdonald, Calum Turner, Dennis
McFall, John Tyler, Paul
McKelvey, William Vaz, Keith
Mackinlay, Andrew Walker, Rt Hon Sir Harold
McLeish, Henry Wallace, James
Walley, Joan Worthington, Tony
Wardell, Gareth (Gower) Wright, Dr Tony
Welsh, Andrew Young, David (Bolton SE)
Wicks, Malcolm
Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Sw'n W) Tellers for the Ayes:
Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen) Mr. Joe Benton and
Wise, Audrey Mr. George Mudie.
Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey) Duncan-Smith, Iain
Aitken, Rt Hon Jonathan Dunn, Bob
Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby) Dykes, Hugh
Allason, Rupert (Torbay) Eggar, Rt Hon Tim
Amess, David Elletson, Harold
Arbuthnot, James Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield)
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)
Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv) Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley)
Ashby, David Evans, Roger (Monmouth)
Atkins, Rt Hon Robert Evennett, David
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham) Faber, David
Baker, Nicholas (North Dorset) Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)
Baldry, Tony Fishburn, Dudley
Banks, Matthew (Southport) Forman, Nigel
Bates, Michael Forsyth, Rt Hon Michael (Stirling)
Batiste, Spencer Forth, Eric
Bellingham, Henry Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)
Bendall, Vivian Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley)
Beresford, Sir Paul Freeman, Rt Hon Roger
Biffen, Rt Hon John French, Douglas
Body, Sir Richard Gale, Roger
Booth, Hartley Gallie, Phil
Boswell, Tim Gardiner, Sir George
Bottomley, Rt Hon Virginia Garel-Jones, Rt Hon Tristan
Bowis, John Garnier, Edward
Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes Gillan, Cheryl
Brandreth, Gyles Gorman, Mrs Teresa
Brazier, Julian Grant, Sir A (SW Cambs)
Bright, Sir Graham Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Brooke, Rt Hon Peter Greenway, John (Ryedale)
Brown, M (Brigg & Cl'thorpes) Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N)
Browning, Mrs Angela Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn
Bruce, Ian (South Dorset) Hague, William
Budgen, Nicholas Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archibald
Burns, Simon Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)
Burt, Alistair Hampson, Dr Keith
Butcher, John Hanley, Rt Hon Jeremy
Butler, Peter Hannam, Sir John
Carlisle, John (Luton North) Hargreaves, Andrew
Carlisle, Sir Kenneth (Lincoln) Harris, David
Carrington, Matthew Haselhurst, Sir Alan
Carttiss, Michael Hawkins, Nick
Cash, William Hawksley, Warren
Channon, Rt Hon Paul Heald, Oliver
Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford) Heath, Rt Hon Sir Edward
Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Ru'clif) Heathcoat-Amory, David
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hendry, Charles
Coe, Sebastian Higgins, Rt Hon Sir Terence
Congdon, David Hill, James (Southampton Test)
Conway, Derek Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas (G'tham)
Cormack, Sir Patrick Horam, John
Couchman, James Howard, Rt Hon Michael
Cran, James Howarth, Alan (Strat'rd-on-A)
Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon) Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford)
Davis, David (Boothferry) Howell, Sir Ralph (N Norfolk)
Day, Stephen Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W)
Deva, Nirj Joseph Hunter, Andrew
Devlin, Tim Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas
Dicks, Terry Jack, Michael
Dorrell, Rt Hon Stephen Jackson, Robert (Wantage)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James Jenkin, Bernard
Dover, Den Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey
Duncan, Alan Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)
Jones, Robert B (W Hertfdshr) Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S)
Jopling, Rt Hon Michael Robinson, Mark (Somerton)
Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne)
Key, Robert Rowe, Andrew (Mid Kent)
Kirkhope, Timothy Rumbold, Rt Hon Dame Angela
Knapman, Roger Sackville, Tom
Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash) Sainsbury, Rt Hon Sir Timothy
Knight, Greg (Derby N) Scott, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
Knight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'stn) Shaw, David (Dover)
Knox, Sir David Shephard, Rt Hon Gillian
Kynoch, George (Kincardine) Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)
Lait, Mrs Jacqui Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)
Lang, Rt Hon Ian Shersby, Sir Michael
Lawrence, Sir Ivan Sims, Roger
Legg, Barry Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)
Leigh, Edward Soames, Nicholas
Lennox-Boyd, Sir Mark Spencer, Sir Derek
Lester, Jim (Broxtowe) Spicer, Sir James (W Dorset)
Lidington, David Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)
Lightbown, David Spink, Dr Robert
Lilley, Rt Hon Peter Spring, Richard
Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham) Sproat, Iain
Lord, Michael Squire, Robin (Hornchurch)
Luff, Peter Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John
Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas Steen, Anthony
MacKay, Andrew Stephen, Michael
Maclean, Rt Hon David Stern, Michael
McLoughlin, Patrick Stewart, Allan
McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick Streeter, Gary
Madel, Sir David Sumberg, David
Maitland, Lady Olga Sweeney, Walter
Mans, Keith Sykes, John
Marlow, Tony Tapsell, Sir Peter
Marshall, John (Hendon S) Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Martin, David (Portsmouth S) Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Mawhinney, Rt Hon Dr Brian Temple-Morris, Peter
Mellor, Rt Hon David
Merchant, Piers Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Mills lain Thornton, Sir Malcolm
Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling) Thumham, Peter
Moate, Sir Roger Townsend, Cyril D (Bexl'yh'th)
Monro, Sir Hector Tracey, Richard
Montgomery, Sir Fergus Tredinnick, David
Needham, Rt Hon Richard Trend, Michael
Nelson, Anthony Trotter, Neville
Neubert, Sir Michael Twinn, Dr Ian
Newton, Rt Hon Tony Vaughan, Sir Gerard
Nicholls, Patrick Waldegrave, Rt Hon William
Nicholson, David (Taunton) Walden, George
Nicholson, Emma (Devon West) Walker, Bill (N Tayside)
Norris, Steve Waller, Gary
Onslow, Rt Hon Sir Cranley Ward, John
Oppenheim, Phillip Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Ottaway, Richard Waterson, Nigel
Page, Richard Watts, John
Patnick, Sir Irvine Wells, Bowen
Patten, Rt Hon John Whitney, Ray
Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey Whittingdale, John
Pawsey, James Widdecombe, Ann
Pickles, Eric Wilkinson, John
Porter, Barry (Wirral S) Wilshire, David
Porter, David (Waveney) Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)
Powell, William (Corby) Winterton, Nicholas (Macc'fld)
Redwood, Rt Hon John Wolfson, Mark
Renton, Rt Hon Tim Wood, Timothy
Richards, Rod Yeo, Tim
Riddick, Graham Tellers for the Noes:
Robathan, Andrew Mr. Sydney Chapman and
Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn Mr. David Willetts

Question accordingly negatived.

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