Class Sizes (Hansard, 27 June 1995)

1. Mr. Alan W. Williams
To ask the Secretary of State for Education if she will commission research on the effect of class size on achievement in education. [29107]

§ The Secretary of State for Education (Mrs. Gillian Shephard)
The hon. Gentleman asks about achievement in education. It is my view that that depends on the quality of teaching.

Mr. Williams
In fact, I asked about class sizes. Why do the Government insist on the nonsense that class sizes do not matter? It goes against common sense. Has the Secretary of State seen the report published a couple of weeks ago by the National Commission on Education, which draws attention to the importance of class size in primary and, particularly, infant schools? Has she seen the research carried out in Tennessee, whereby a comparison of a class of 15 pupils with a class of 25 pupils shows that higher standards are achieved and pupils behave better in smaller classes? Is it not a shameful record of this Government that class sizes have risen from 25—

§ Madam Speaker
Order. This is a very bad start. I constantly harass Ministers to give brief replies, so I must ask Back Benchers to put brief questions.

Mr. Williams
May I wind up my question?

§ Madam Speaker
Order. We do not wind up questions. I think that the Minister has got the point.

§ Mrs. Shephard
I am, of course, aware of the document from the National Commission on Education. I am also aware of the most recent research from the United States. Even if research from America tells us that class sizes of 13 or 15 are desirable, research from America and from here tells us that interventions that impact on teaching methods rather than on class size offer better results and better value for money. The hon. Gentleman will be aware that class sizes have edged up a little over the past two years and standards have risen a great deal.

§ Mr. Dunn
May I support my right hon. Friend's view that it is the quality of teaching that matters? Does she remember the words of my right hon. Friend the Member for Brent, North (Sir R. Boyson) that some teachers can 670 teach 60 children in a bus shelter and achieve good results while other teachers will have a riot on their hands with one dead chicken?

§ Mrs. Shephard
As I said, achievement in education depends on the quality of teaching and the quality of teachers. Very large classes can be more difficult to teach, but it is important to remember that Her Majesty's chief inspector has never suggested that current class sizes are depressing standards. I reassure my hon. Friend that I agree with the drift of our right hon. Friend the Member for Brent, North (Sir R. Boyson).

§ Mr. Kilfoyle
Will the Secretary of State now answer the question on commissioning research? Is it not a disgrace that we must depend on American research like the Tennessee Star project and the Ypsilanti project on nursery education? Is it not a fact that, in the past 10 years, education research expenditure has been cut from £79 million to £23 million a year? Does that not show callous indifference by the Government towards the educational needs of the country?

§ Mrs. Shephard
In a word, no. What is a fact is that, although class sizes have edged up a bit over the past two years, so have standards. Standards have gone up a great deal, despite the Opposition's best efforts to vote against every measure to raise standards. There is a lot of research evidence around. We shall have more information from the Office for Standards in Education database. At present, I do not see a case for more long-term research on class sizes as such, but I see every reason for having useful research that can improve standards.