HC Deb 10 July 1995 vol 263 cc615-6
23. Mr. Clifton-Brown

To ask the right hon. Member for Selby, representing the Church Commissioners, what assessment the Commission has made of whether its current level of support to the Church is sustainable.[31461]

Mr. Michael Alison (Second Church Estates Commissioner, representing the Church Commissioners)

The commissioners have taken independent actuarial and other professional advice. A peak distribution in 1993 of more than 7 per cent. as a percentage of their assets, to meet increased expenditure commitments on clergy benefits, was reduced to 6 per cent. in 1994, but this is still an unsustainably high level. Action to bring distribution levels down further continues, but at a pace which is manageable for the Church of England as a whole.

Mr. Clifton-Brown

I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer and for the clarity of the 1994 annual report and accounts. Does he agree that it contained some alarming information, including, in particular, both the fact that the level of expenditure of £153.4 million is deemed to be unsustainable and the £8.4 million deficit—the highest deficit in the history of the Church Commissioners? Will my right hon. Friend also take it into account that the cost of pensions is now 50 per cent. higher than the cost of stipends, whereas they were about the same 10 years ago? Will he come up with a realistic plan in next year's annual report to detail what will be the effects if that level of expenditure continues and to take some action to curtail it?

Mr. Alison

As I think that my hon. Friend will have heard in the first part of my answer, it is recognised that the Church Commissioners have been distributing more than it is proper or reasonable to do over a long period. That is due entirely to the extraordinary increase in both the standard and the take-up of pensions, which have to have priority. It is for that reason that offsetting action has been proposed. The Church of England as a whole accepts that there should be a contributory pension scheme for future pensions so as to make a cut-off point in the responsibility of the Church Commissioners for current pensioners.

Mr. Bennett

Will the right hon. Gentleman join me in congratulating those people in the Church in my constituency who have worked hard to increase the support that the Church gives to some of the most disadvantaged within the community? Can he assure me that if funds are cut, it will not be the most disadvantaged who suffer?

Mr. Alison

Yes, I can certainly give the hon. Gentleman that assurance. Cuts in Church Commissioners' funds to dioceses are focused on the prosperous, well-to-do dioceses. The wind is tempered to the shorn lamb of dioceses such as that to which the hon. Gentleman refers. He will be glad to know that the shortfall in the Church Commission contribution to dioceses has already been made good by the willingness of church-goers to put their hands deeper into their pocket to make up the difference.

Mr. Rowe

Does my right hon. Friend accept that, like many other church-goers, I spend a disproportionately large amount of my income on matters that are not essential and that if we were challenged effectively by the Church to make a larger contribution from our incomes to the support of that most important of all institutions, the Church, we would do a great deal better? Does he further agree that that will require a radical reassessment of the way in which the Church of England is run, because parishes which respond to the request to give more money will undoubtedly want to have a larger say in how the Church is run?

Mr. Alison

I take my hon. Friend's point. People probably do not realise how much support is still generated by the Church of England, and by Christian churches generally in Britain. The Archbishop of Canterbury recently pointed out that a quarter of the British population—many millions of people—went to church last Christmas day. The average donation to a typical church collection plate on Sundays is between £3.50 and £5, but I believe that the amount would increase sharply if people knew that a need existed. Now that such a need is becoming clear, I think that giving by folk in the pews will indeed rise substantially.