HC Deb 04 July 1995 vol 263 cc243-7

Amendment proposed: No. 1, in page 9, line 39, at end insert— '6(A) The arrangements must provide that when a scheme has more than 850 members, and pensioner members comprise a majority, one additional trustee shall be nominated, who shall be a pensioner member of that scheme.'.—[Mr. Ingram.]

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The House divided: Ayes 252, Noes 282.

Division No. 194] [10.00 pm
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)
Adams, Mrs Irene Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'dge H'l)
Ainger, Nick Denham, John
Armstrong, Hilary Dewar, Donald
Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy Dixon, Don
Ashton, Joe Dobson, Frank
Banks, Tony (Newham NW) Donohoe, Brian H
Barnes, Harry Dowd, Jim
Barron, Kevin Dunnachie, Jimmy
Battle, John Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth
Bayley, Hugh Eagle, Ms Angela
Beckett, Rt Hon Margaret Eastham, Ken
Beggs, Roy Etherington, Bill
Bell, Stuart Evans, John (St Helens N)
Benn, Rt Hon Tony Ewing, Mrs Margaret
Bennett, Andrew F Fatchett, Derek
Bermingham, Gerald Faulds, Andrew
Berry, Roger Field, Frank (Birkenhead)
Betts, Clive Flynn, Paul
Blunkett, David Forsythe, Clifford (S Antrim)
Boateng, Paul Foster, Rt Hon Derek
Bowden, Sir Andrew Foster, Don (Bath)
Bray, Dr Jeremy Foulkes, George
Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E) Fraser, John
Brown, N (N'c'tle upon Tyne E) Fyfe, Maria
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon) Galloway, George
Burden, Richard Garrett, John
Byers, Stephen Gerrard, Neil
Caborn, Richard Godman, Dr Norman A
Callaghan, Jirn Godsiff, Roger
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge) Golding, Mrs Llin
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V) Gordon, Mildred
Campbell-Savours, D N Graham, Thomas
Cann, Jamie Grant, Bemie (Tottenham)
Carlile, Alexander (Montgomery) Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Chidgey, David Grocott, Bruce
Chisholm, Malcolm Gunnell, John
Church, Judith Hain, Peter
Clapham, Michael Hall, Mike
Clark, Dr David (South Shields) Harman, Ms Harriet
Clarke, Eric (Midlothian) Harvey, Nick
Clarke, Tom (Monklands W) Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy
Clelland, David Henderson, Doug
Clwyd, Mrs Ann Hill, Keith (Streatham)
Coffey, Ann Hinchliffe, David
Cohen, Harry Hodge, Margaret
Connarty, Michael Hoey, Kate
Corbett, Robin Hogg, Norman (Cumbernauld)
Corbyn, Jeremy Home Robertson, John
Corston, Jean Hood, Jimmy
Cousins, Jim Hoon, Geoffrey
Cunliffe, Lawrence Howarth, George (Knowsley North)
Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE) Howells, Dr. Kim (Pontypridd)
Cunningham, Roseanna Hoyle, Doug
Dalyell, Tarn Hughes, Kevin (DoncasterN)
Darling, Alistair Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)
Davidson, Ian Hughes, Roy (Newport E)
Davies, Bryan (Oldham C'tral) Hughes, Simon (Southwark)
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli) Hutton, John
Illsley, Eric Pickthall, Colin
Ingram, Adam Pike, Peter L
Jackson, Glenda (H'stead) Pope, Greg
Jackson, Helen (Shef'ld, H) Powell, Ray (Ogmore)
Jamieson, David Prentice, Bridget (Lew'm E)
Janner, Greville Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Johnston, Sir Russell Prescott, Rt Hon John
Jones, Barry (Alyn and D'side) Primarolo, Dawn
Jones, Ieuan Wyn (Ynys Môn) Purchase, Ken
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C) Quin, Ms Joyce
Jones, Lynne (B'ham S O) Radice, Giles
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd, SW) Randall, Stuart
Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham) Raynsford, Nick
Jowell, Tessa Reid, Dr John
Keen, Alan Rendel, David
Kennedy, Jane (L'pool Br'dg'n) Robertson, George (Hamilton)
Khabra, Piara S Robinson, Geoffrey (Co'try NW)
Kilfovle, Peter Roche, Mrs Barbara
Kirkwood, Archy Rogers, Allan
Lestor, Joan (Eccles) Rooker, Jeff
Lewis, Terry Rooney, Terry
Liddell, Mrs Helen Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Litherland, Robert Ross, William (E Londonderry)
Livingstone, Ken Ruddock, Joan
Lloyd, Tony (Stretford) Salmond, Alex
Llwyd, Elfyn Sedgemore, Brlan
Lynne, Ms Liz Sheerman, Barry
McAllion, John Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert
McAvoy, Thomas Short, Clare
Macdonald, Calum Simpson, Alan
McFall, John Skinner, Dennis
McKelvey, William Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)
Mackinlay, Andrew Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
McLeish, Henry Smyth, The Reverend Martin
Maclennan, Robert Spearing, Nigel
McMaster, Gordon Spellar, John
McNamara, Kevin Squire, Rachel (Dunfermline W)
MacShane, Denis Steel, Rt Hon Sir David
McWilliam, John Steinberg, Gerry
Madden, Max Stevenson, George
Mandelson, Peter Straw, Jack
Marek, Dr John Sutcliffe, Gerry
Marshall, David (Shettleston) Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)
Marshall, Jim (Leicester, S) Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Martin, Michael J (Springburn) Timms, Stephen
Martlew, Eric Tipping, Paddy
Maxton, John Touhig, Don
Meacher, Michael Turner, Dennis
Meale, Alan Tyler, Paul
Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley) Walker, Rt Hon Sir Harold
Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll & Bute) Wallace, James
Milburn, Alan Walley, Joan
Miller, Andrew Wardell, Gareth (Gower)
Morgan, Rhodri Watson, Mike
Morris, Rt Hon Alfred (Wy'nshawe) Welsh, Andrew
Morris, Estelle (B'ham Yardley) Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Sw'n W)
Mowlam, Marjorie Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen)
Mudie, George Wilson, Brian
Mullin, Chris Winnick, David
Murphy, Paul Wise, Audrey
Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon Worthington, Tony
O'Brien, Mike (N W'kshire) Wray, Jimmy
O'Brien, William (Normanton) Wright, Dr Tony
Olner, Bill Young, David (Bolton SE)
O'Neill, Martin
Orme, Rt Hon Stanley Tellers for the Ayes:
Parry, Robert Mr. John Cummings and Mr. Robert Ainsworth.
Pearson, Ian
NOES
Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey) Ancram, Michael
Aitken, Rt Hon Jonathan Arbuthnot, James
Alexander, Richard Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)
Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby) Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv)
Allason, Rupert (Torbay) Ashby, David
Amess, David Atkins, Rt Hon Robert
Atkinson, David (Bour'mouth E) Forman, Nigel
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham) Forsyth, Rt Hon Michael (Stirling)
Baker, Nicholas (North Dorset) Forth, Eric
Baldry, Tony Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman
Banks, Matthew (Southport) Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)
Bates, Michael Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley)
Batiste, Spencer Freeman, Rt Hon Roger
Bellingham, Henry French, Douglas
Bendall, Vivian Gale, Roger
Beresford, Sir Paul Gallie, Phil
Biffen, Rt Hon John Gardiner, Sir George
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas Garel-Jones, Rt Hon Tristan
Booth, Hartley Garnier, Edward
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham) Gillan, Cheryl
Bottomley, Rt Hon Virginia Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles
Bowis, John Gorman, Mrs Teresa
Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes Gorst, Sir John
Brandreth, Gyles Grant, Sir A (SW Cambs)
Brazier, Julian Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Bright, Sir Graham Greenway, John (Ryedale)
Brown, M (Brigg & Cl'thorpes) Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N)
Browning, Mrs Angela Hague, William
Bruce, Ian (Dorset) Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)
Budgen, Nicholas Hampson, Dr Keith
Burns, Simon Hanley, Rt Hon Jeremy
Burt, Alistair Hannam, Sir John
Butcher, John Hargreaves, Andrew
Butler, Peter Haselhurst, Sir Alan
Butterfill, John Hawkins, Nick
Carlisle, John (Luton North) Hawksley, Warren
Carlisle, Sir Kenneth (Lincoln) Hayes, Jerry
Carrington, Matthew Heald, Oliver
Carttiss, Michael Heathcoat-Amory, David
Cash, William Hendry, Charles
Channon, Rt Hon Paul Hicks, Robert
Churchill, Mr Higgins, Rt Hon Sir Terence
Clappison, James Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas (G'tham)
Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford) Horam, John
Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Ru'clif) Hordern, Rt Hon Sir Peter
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Howarth, Alan (Strat'rd-on-A)
Coe, Sebastian Howell, Sir Ralph (N Norfolk)
Colvin, Michael Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W)
Conway, Derek Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne)
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st) Hunter, Andrew
Cope, Rt Hon Sir John Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas
Cormack, Sir Patrick Jack, Michael
Couchman, James Jackson, Robert (Wantage)
Cran, James Jenkin, Bernard
Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire) Jessel, Toby
Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon) Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey
Davies, Quentin (Stamford) Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)
Davis, David (Boothferry) Jones, Robert B (W Hertfdshr)
Day, Stephen Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine
Deva, Nirj Joseph King, Rt Hon Tom
Devlin, Tim Kirkhope, Timothy
Dicks, Terry Knapman, Roger
Dorrell, Rt Hon Stephen Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James Knight, Greg (Derby N)
Dover, Den Knight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'stn)
Duncan, Alan Knox, Sir David
Duncan-Smith, Iain Kynoch, George (Kincardine)
Dunn, Bob Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Durant, Sir Anthony Lamont, Rt Hon Norman
Dykes, Hugh Lang, Rt Hon Ian
Eggar, Rt Hon Tim Lawrence, Sir Ivan
Elletson, Harold Legg, Barry
Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield) Leigh, Edward
Evans, Jonathan (Brecon) Lennox-Boyd, Sir Mark
Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley) Lidington, David
Evans, Roger (Monmouth) Lightbown, David
Evennett, David Lilley, Rt Hon Peter
Faber, David Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)
Fabricant, Michael Lord, Michael
Fenner, Dame Peggy Luff, Peter
Held, Barry (Isle of Wight) Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
Fishburn, Dudley MacGregor, Rt Hon John
MacKay, Andrew Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)
Maclean, Rt Hon David Shepherd, Richard
McLoughlin, Patrick Shersby, Sir Michael
McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick Sims, Roger
Madel, Sir David Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)
Maitland, Lady Olga Soames, Nicholas
Malone, Gerald Spencer, Sir Derek
Mans, Keith Spicer, Sir James (W Dorset)
Marland, Paul Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)
Marlow, Tony Spink, Dr Robert
Marshall, John (Hendon S) Spring, Richard
Martin, David (Portsmouth S) Sproat, Iain
Mates, Michael Squire, Robin (Hornchurch)
Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick Stephen, Michael
Merchant, Piers Stewart, Alan
Mills, Iain Streeter, Gary
Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling) Sumberg, David
Mitchell, Sir David (NW Hants) Sweeney, Walter
Moate, Sir Roger Sykes, John
Monro, Sir Hector Tapsell, Sir Peter
Montgomery, Sir Fergus Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Moss, Malcolm Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Nelson, Anthony Taylor, Sir Teddy (Southend, E)
Neubert, Sir Michael Temple-Morris, Peter
Newton, Rt Hon Tony Thomason, Roy
Nicholson, David (Taunton) Thompson, Sir Donald (Ce'r V)
Nicholson, Emma (Devon West) Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Norris, Steve Thornton, Sir Malcolm
Onslow, Rt Hon Sir Cranley Thurnham, Peter
Oppenheim, Phillip Townend, John (Bridlington)
Ottaway, Richard Townsend, Cyril D (Bexl'yh'th)
Page, Richard Tracey, Richard
Paice, James Tredinnick, David
Patnick, Sir Irvine Trend, Michael
Patten, Rt Hon John Trotter, Neville
Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey Twinn, Dr Ian
Pawsey, James Vaughan, Sir Gerard
Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth Viggers, Peter
Pickles, Eric Waldegrave, Rt Hon William
Porter, Barry (Wirral S) Walker, Bill (N Tayside)
Porter, David (Waveney) Waller, Gary
Portilto, Rt Hon Michael Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Powell, William (Corby) Waterson, Nigel
Rathbone, Tim Watts, John
Redwood, Rt Hon John Wells, Bowen
Renton, Rt Hon Tim Wheeler, Rt Hon Sir John
Richards, Rod Whitney, Ray
Riddick, Graham Whittingdale, John
Rifkind, Rt Hon Malcolm Widdecombe, Ann
Robathan, Andrew Wiggin, Sir Jerry
Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn Wilkinson, John
Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S) Willetts, David
Robinson, Mark (Somerton) Wilshire, David
Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne) Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)
Rowe, Andrew (Mid Kent) Winterton, Nicholas (Macc'f'ld)
Rumbold, Fit Hon Dame Angela Yeo, Tim
Sackville, Tom Young, Rt Hon Sir George
Sainsbury, Rt Hon Sir Timothy
Shaw, David (Dover) Tellers for the Noes:
Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey) Mr. Sydney Chapman and Mr. Timothy Wood.
Shephard, Rt Hon Gillian

Question accordingly negatived.

It being after The o' clock, further cosideration of the bill stood adjoured.

Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No.14 (Exempted business). That, at this day's sitting, the Pensions Bill [Lords] may be proceeded with, though opposed, until any hour.—[Mr. Kirkhope.]

Question agreed to.

Mr. Brian Wilson (Cunninghame, North)

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am sure that you are aware, as is the House, of the rather sorry background to the case of BMARC and arms to Iran. In particular, I refer to the fact that, in both written and oral parliamentary statements during that time, Ministers, as they have acknowledged, misled the House—inadvertently, no doubt—because of the non-availability of papers that were held by Government Departments.

We are also aware that those papers have now surfaced, and there is no longer any doubt about their importance. We understand that some examination, several years belatedly, is being made of them. I am sure that you would agree, Madam Deputy Speaker, that, if information were to come out of those papers that had further implications for oral and written statements made to the House by Ministers, the House must be the first to know the contents of those papers.

In particular, if any information which comes out of the BMARC papers has any implications for the position of the Chief Secretary to the Treasury or any other Minister, the House must be the first to know about it. I ask you, Madam Deputy Speaker, to safeguard the House's interests in that respect.

Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Janet Fookes)

The hon. Gentleman and the House will understand that that is not a matter over which the Chair has any jurisdiction. The hon. Gentleman must find other ways of pursuing the issue.

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