§ The Minister of State, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. Michael Jack)I beg to move,
That the Farm and Conservation Grant (Variation) (No. 2) Scheme 1994 (S.I., 1994, No. 3002), dated 25th November 1994, a copy of which was laid before this House on 29th November, be approved.
§ Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael Morris)With this it will be convenient to consider motion No. 3 in the name of the Leader of the Opposition:
That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Farm and Conservation Grant (Amendment) Regulations 1994 (S.I., 1994, No. 3003), dated 25th November 1994, a copy of which was laid before this House on 29th November, be annulled.
§ Mr. JackThis debate deals with developments affecting the farm and conservation grant scheme. The House may recall that, on 29 November last year, my right hon. Friend the Minister announced the outcome of the 1994 public expenditure round as it affected agriculture, saying:
Against the background of an extremely demanding public expenditure round I am delighted that resources have been found to support farming enterprises in the six Objective 5(b) areas in England".Although he found some extra resources for this task, savings had to be found from capital grants to fund our new programme. It is on those capital grants that the debate will concentrate.These two short instruments, the Farm and Conservation Grant (Variation) (No. 2) Scheme 1994 and the Farm and Conservation Grant (Amendment) Regulations 1994, came into effect on 30 November last year. They end the availability of grants to farmers for waste handling measures. However, let me reassure the House that where a commitment to provide waste facilities before 30 November 1994 can be shown, or where a farmer has a current improvement plan which includes such facilities, claims will still be accepted.
The grant scheme which we are ending has exceeded our original expectations. When the scheme was introduced in 1989, the then Minister announced a provision of up to £50 million over three years for waste handling facilities in recognition of the need to tackle the problem of farm waste pollution. In fact, since the scheme's inception, more than £150 million has been paid in grants to farmers in the United Kingdom for the installation or improvement of waste handling facilities, valued in total at about £300 million.
In England and Wales, 11,500 farmers have benefited. The scheme's effectiveness is mirrored by the fact that, in 1988, the year before the scheme was introduced, there were 940 serious agricultural pollution incidents. In 1993, only 63 major incidents were reported. However, we acknowledge that particular difficulties may be experienced by farmers in areas that will be designated as nitrate-vulnerable zones, and I can confirm that it is our intention to provide assistance to farmers in those areas for waste handling measures.
We want to help farmers to maintain high standards of pollution control. To that end, free pollution advice and help in the preparation of farm waste management plans will continue to be available. That will be backed up by the codes of practice for the protection of soil, water and 889 air, which give sound advice and guidance on how to avoid pollution. Moreover, we are continuing to invest around £2 million a year in research programmes designed to help farmers to manage farm wastes.
The farm and conservation grant scheme also provides help with the provision, replacement and improvement of hedges, traditional walls and banks, and the repair or reinstatement of traditional buildings. That help will continue, with about £8 million of grants in England, Scotland and Wales until February 1996, when the scheme will expire, and we will consider how best to continue that work in the light of the transfer of the Countryside Commission's stewardship arrangements to our Ministry. I commend the measures to the House.
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§ Mr. Elliot Morley (Glanford and Scunthorpe)The measures, as the Minister said, end grants for facilities for handling the storage and treatment of agricultural effluent and waste and related fixed disposal schemes. The grant scheme has been useful. As the Minister outlined, agricultural pollution has been a major source of river pollution. When I looked at the figures recently, I was surprised by the high proportion of pollution incidents that have been attributed to agricultural run-off, particularly in the south-west, where there are many dairy farms.
There is no doubt that organisations such as the National Farmers Union have done much to support farmers in developing, for example, management advice on controlling pollution from slurry and from the animal livestock industry. The Agricultural Development and Advisory Service has also played a valuable role. It is a great shame that ADAS is to be privatised, because it has provided great support for the agricultural sector over the years. Many farmers would find it difficult to buy such expertise and support. In terms of the support which the agricultural sector receives, farmers should expect research and development advice from bodies such as ADAS. I fear that in future such advice will be denied to many farmers.
The grants were reduced from 50 per cent. in 1989, when the scheme was introduced, to 25 per cent. in 1993. That was obviously a clear signal that they would be phased out. I have no doubt that they are being phased out as part of the Ministry's obligation to the Treasury, as the Minister said, so that the Treasury can accumulate money and can bribe the electorate with their own money and offer tax cuts at the next general election.
There has been excellent uptake of the scheme. The figures show that £64,000 was granted in 1989, rising to £23.4 million at its peak, and declining slightly to £21.1 million in 1992–93. The scheme's success can be seen in the decline in the overall number of pollution incidents. The overall pollution figures show that there were 4,441 incidents in 1988, declining to 2,883 in 1993. The involvement of dairy and beef farmers in those pollution incidents was about a third—35 per cent. in 1988 and 32 per cent. in 1993.
The National Rivers Authority concludes that the issues at which the grants are aimed—the containment of slurry and silage liquors, which are very powerful pollutants, and the failure of storage areas—are the main causes of agricultural pollution incidents. I am sure that the Minister will agree that we need high-quality aquatic habitats and 890 that such habitats are threatened. Many of the cleanest rivers are under great pressure from all kinds of pollution, not just agricultural pollution. Indeed, they are also under pressure from water abstraction. Chalk rivers are also under pressure.
Pressure on the unspoilt and cleanest water environments has been demonstrated by the decline of the otter. I am glad that the otter is making a comeback in certain parts of the country. That is a tribute to reintroduction programmes, conservation bodies and better pollution control. We have seen the decline of the dipper, which is linked to the greater acidity of water, and the decline of trout in certain streams. Those declines are important also as bio-indicators of the health of our country and of our aquatic environment. The scheme has been effective in reducing that problem when subsidies are rightly under scrutiny in the agricultural sector and the common agricultural policy is under review, not least by today's Euro-rebels' manifesto.
§ Mr. D. N. Campbell-Savours (Workington)What does it say?
§ Mr. MorleyThe Euro-rebels' manifesto stressed the need to reform agriculture and fishing. They called for the return of control to individual countries in respect of agriculture and fishing. I do not know whether the Euro-rebels' condition will be that the manifesto must be accepted by the Government before they allow themselves to be readmitted. We await developments with interest.
The savings from the scheme are quite modest, as the Minister will concede. The NFU calculates that ending the scheme will bring about a saving of about £8 million in 1995–96. That is a very small sum, taking into account the global sum of agricultural support. I am sure that it did not pass your attention, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that last night's threat of rebellion over the recent fishing deal produced an extra £28 million in grants because 27 Tory Members showed their dissent. On my calculation, that worked out to a little more than £1 million per dodgy vote.
This is not one of the best-attended debates; I am sure that it makes up for that in quality, if not in quantity. If the five Conservative Members present would care to show their rebellion tonight, there could be a useful £5 million to go back into the scheme. It would take only another £3 million and we would be able to make up the £8 million that the scheme is meant to save. Conservative Back-Bench Members might consider the way in which Government finance seems to work. There are certainly better odds than in the national lottery.
It is a sad fact that environmental grants for those and other environmental measures are still a very small part of the overall agricultural budget. Opposition Members have warmly supported schemes such as the environmentally sensitive areas scheme; it brings quick benefits to farmers and it benefits countryside management. However, there is still a need for the effective monitoring of those schemes. That is not an issue that we may talk about tonight, but I am sure that the Government accept that there is a need to evaluate whether public money is spent effectively and whether it achieves the objects for which it was designed.
The agri-environment programme is also very disappointing in terms of the overall proportion of money that is allocated to it. In fact, the agri-environment programme accounts for about 1 per cent. of current spending on agricultural support. The public would see 891 much more rationale behind grants directed towards environmental gain than they would in special beef premiums and other schemes linked to production subsidy. Support for environmental control—that is what the grant was designed for—would command popular support.
I cannot deny that profits in the dairy sector have improved recently and are fairly good at the moment, but farmers with existing quota are the ones who gain, while dairy farmers who want to buy or lease more quota to expand, because of agreements or developments that they may have—especially new entrants into the dairy industry who have to buy or lease quota—face heavy financial burdens. The grants were helpful in that respect. I hope that the Minister realises that some farmers will find it hard to raise the money to provide the facilities.
I do not want to take too much of the time of the House on narrow points connected with the regulations, but I should be grateful if the Minister would deal with two aspects in his reply. I understand that MAFF and the Department of the Environment are reviewing all environmental land management schemes. They want a more coherent approach to the implementation and development of schemes within the proper framework of a conservation strategy. We do not disagree with that. We certainly think that a land management and land use approach is sensible, and it is good to design schemes to meet the Government's international biodiversity commitments and the European Union habitat directive, which also places an obligation on them.
The Government's Environment Bill will be considered by the House shortly; that, too, has elements connected with the strategy, in that it deals with hedgerow conservation and conservation grants in general. What role does the Minister expect the forthcoming environmental protection agency to play in connection with conservation grants and with directing resources to conservation programmes in the agricultural sector, as part of an overall land use and countryside management scheme?
I note that the Minister said that some form of grant would be available for farmers in designated nitrate-vulnerable zones. Can he outline any details of how those schemes will work? Apparently, there is good reason for farmers in such zones to receive grants for waste storage. That is fair enough. We do not disagree with it; but if there is good reason for that, where is the reason for taking the grant away from other farmers? Preventing pollution is important not only in nitrate-vulnerable zones but in every region.
There is no doubt that when such incentives are lost, some farmers will be less able to invest in efficient and environmentally sensitive pollution control facilities, so there is still a potential agricultural pollution problem. The scheme has been successful, and I urge the Government to include something like it in any future overall land management scheme rather than to scrap it completely, as is proposed.
§ Mr. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Cirencester and Tewkesbury)Thank you for letting me catch your eye this evening, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I want to say a few words because the Minister's contribution was so brief. I had hoped to intervene in his speech, but having failed to do so I am now forced to make a speech of my own.
892 I congratulate my hon. Friend the Minister on the success of the scheme. There is no doubt that for a comparatively small sum—about £150 million—it has radically reduced the number of pollution incidents, and that is a creditable success. As a result, the worst cases have already been grant-aided and pollution prevention facilities have been installed; but there are still farmers at the margins, whose profitability is not great, who have not yet managed to install facilities.
Some farmers in my constituency are not covered by the nitrate-vulnerable zone category but may be covered by others, such as environmentally sensitive areas or nitrate-vulnerable areas. I urge the Minister to consider whether farmers in areas presently zoned—they are already in a fairly special area, otherwise they would not be covered—could have their grants continued as if they were in nitrate-vulnerable zones. I ask him to think seriously about that idea, so that farmers on the margins, with low profitability, are covered. They are often using stock farming systems, with no other farming methods that they could use, so, for the sake of the environment, it would be worth while to include them.
§ Mr. Paul Tyler (North Cornwall)In the last words of his speech, the hon. Member for Cirencester arid Tewkesbury (Mr. Clifton-Brown) emphasised the importance of the schemes. They exist not to support farm incomes or to help farmers to be more productive but lo help the environment. It has been something of a misnomer that, in the past, they have been treated as farm schemes. It is right that they are administered by the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and by the equivalent bodies for Wales and Scotland, but we should really regard them as part of the armoury for protecting the environment, not as part of the farm grant system—I see the hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury nodding.
The irony is that cuts are being made precisely at the time when we are told on every other front that farming policy should be turned towards a wider rural policy, with more effective support for conservation and environmental protection. We are asked to take a step backwards when everyone else is saying that we should take a step forwards.
While congratulating the Minister on the success of the scheme, I must tell him that this is the last moment when he should accept Treasury cuts. We all know why cuts are being made. The reason has nothing to do with a change of attitude within MAFF—or, if it is, MAFF must be deaf and blind. It has to do with the fact that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has mighty little that he can get his hands on in MAFF's budget; the huge sums that pass through the Ministry are largely determined by our participation in the European Union common agricultural policy, so they are saved from the Chancellor's axe and left almost intact. The millions of pounds currently going into the area aid and the set-aside schemes remain beyond the scope of the House, of the Ministry and even of the Chancellor, yet what is, by comparison, the tiny sum available for the conservation grant scheme is up for grabs; in the usual polite terms that the Minister uses to describe such events, he says that the scheme will have "expired" by this time next year.
893 We must ensure that, even if the Minister pursues that policy now, he must also introduce alternatives to take the place of the scheme. As other hon. Members have said, its main purpose was to ensure that the handling, storage and treatment of farm waste were effectively tackled. That does nothing for the productivity of the dairy farmer or the beef farmer; indeed, having installed facilities, farmers may find that the running costs make their holdings less productive. The scheme is designed to protect the wider community and the environment. It is not a farm support scheme.
The money made available for those who claim for the maintenance of hedgerows and stone walls can have the same effect. Once a farmer has taken up the scheme, he will have to maintain his hedgerows and walls again and again. Without financial support, that will be a continuing drain on his productivity. In my travels around the country in the past few years, I have seen dry stone walls in the Pennines that stop suddenly because at a certain point the grant support was reduced. That does not help the farmer; even worse, it is of real damage to the managed landscape which so many people want to protect, conserve and enhance.
I ask the Minister to explain what will be in place for farmers who do not happen to fall within the ESAs—I ask not for their sake but for the sake of future generations and the landscape. What will be in place to ensure that the useful initiatives taken under the hedgerow incentive scheme are extended to all field boundaries, including Cornish banks? Owing to an absurdity of bureaucratic bungling, Cornish banks—they do not happen to have massive growth on top, but they are otherwise identical to hedges in other parts of the country; they just happen to be our local variation—have been excluded from the hedgerow incentive scheme.
It is true that two thirds of pollution incidents have originated from beef or dairy farms. If, in future, they do not happen to be sited in nitrate-vulnerable zones, they will not be eligible for any sort of assistance. Who suffers from that? It is not so much the farmers, although they may be put to considerable expenditure, as the wider community and the environment.
Of course, those who had ready money in the years between 1989 and 1993, when they could obtain 50 per cent. grants toward expenditure on waste water schemes, were, on the whole, the more profitable farmers. Similarly, those who were able to take advantage of the scheme when support was reduced to 25 per cent. were still people with ready money. The people who are now left—the National Rivers Authority is desperately worried about them—are those with no financial resources with which to support this sort of expensive project. Some hon. Members may not be aware that the sums involved run into thousands of pounds, often on the holdings least able to stand that sort of expenditure—even less so without financial support of any kind.
The estimated savings amount to £8 million a year. I believe that the tax-paying public would cheerfully contribute £8 million to that purpose if they knew that the money was coming from the area assistance programme or from set-aside. Tonight, we should be weighing up the costs to the environment, not the costs to the farming community. That is why the Minister must take seriously the various questions put to us, and no doubt to him, by 894 organisations such as the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds and the Council for the Protection of Rural England—not because they support the farming industry but because they are concerned about the impact on the environment.
I hope, too, that the Minister will give us—we cannot obtain it direct—the advantage of the advice that he has received from the NRA. All my contact with the authority, at the sharp end and on the farm, persuades me that it is desperately worried about the impact of these cuts.
It is surely symbolic of the attitude of the Government and of this Ministry that these cuts are made now. Support for agriculture is taking a wrong turning. It is "Alice in Wonderland" thinking to encourage set-aside at the same time as discouraging both the prevention of pollution and the enhancement of traditional features such as field boundaries.
It is also damaging and dangerous to suppose that, in future, policies such as these should be applied only to designated areas. As the hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury said, there will always be marginal cases. If only areas designated as special, or as ESAs, or as nitrate-vulnerable zones, are the ones that get the support, there will always be a large number of hard cases that fall outside such categories. The public at large will feel, moreover, that pollution can have just as bad an effect on, say, the aquatic life cycle in other areas.
In the south-west, dairy farmers have had a great deal of trouble in recent months due to extensive flooding—flash floods, storms and rain. The rain of the past 24 hours has greatly increased the risks associated with overflows of slurry. There have been damaging incidents for which no particular blame should attach to the farmers concerned, but they clearly need the attention of the NRA.
If we are to have effective conservation and landscape management, and if we are also to ensure the sort of pollution prevention measures required of us by the EU, we cannot proceed on a designated area basis. There has to be a national policy. We cannot meet the requirements of the European directives, or of our home audience, if these grants are applied only to specific geographical areas. That is over-restrictive and could be extremely damaging.
I believe that this is a very sad step. Had the Minister been frank with the House, he would have admitted that he did not want to take it, but that he had the Treasury just down the road looking over his shoulder. He can redeem himself this evening, however, if he tells us what he hopes will be in place by this time next year, when the last residues of this valuable scheme are swept away by these measures. I hope that the Minister will be forward looking and will make positive suggestions to put in place national policies. It will not be sufficient to say that only limited, designated areas will require this sort of attention in future.
§ Mr. D. N. Campbell-Savours (Workington)I had not intended to speak in the debate until I received, earlier today, a book written by Gordon Conway, former professor of environmental technology at Imperial College of Science and Technology in London, and by Jules M. Pretty, director of the sustainable agricultural programme at the International Institute for Environment and Development, also in London. The book, entitled 895 "Unwelcome Harvest: Agriculture and Pollution", contains an interesting section dealing with this issue and describing the scale of the problem that we face. I believe that the House should bear the size of the problem in mind when deciding to cut £8 million of public money from this area of expenditure.
In the section entitled "Livestock Waste and Slurry" on page 276—I am sure researchers will want to look it up—we read:
Specialised livestock operations are a very potent source of pollution. The worst problems arise from the slurry systems of pig and dairy farms in the UK … The livestock are housed in such a way that their faeces and urine fall through slatted floors into channels or pits from where they are periodically transferred into storage tanks or lagoons. The resulting nutrient load can be enormous: on the largest feedlots, with 900 to 2,000 animals per hectare, assuming an average animal size of 450 kg, each excreting 0.17 kilos of nitrate a day, the loading to each hectare is between 150 and 250 kgN per day.The total national pollution load from livestock excretion is thus very large. In the United Kingdom it is equivalent to 150 million people, about two and a half times the human population, while in the USA it is 10 times greater, that is, equivalent to 2 billion people, or 40 per cent. of the world's population. As the Royal Commission on Environmental Pollution put it, 'a modem farm of 40 hectares carrying a dairy herd of 50 cows and a pig population based on 50 sows has a potential pollution load equivalent to that of a village of 1,000 inhabitants.'''I interpret all this to mean that we are dealing with a vast problem—a huge amount of slurry. The public will want legislation in place to ensure that it is all properly disposed of and that, if farmers are not prepared to invest in the equipment needed to comply with the legislation, a regime is put in place to help them, not just in sensitive areas, but in others too. Only thus can we avoid polluting and damaging our environment. That is my case this evening. I am not altogether convinced that Ministers have fully taken into account the huge scale of the problem with which the farming community is required to deal.I understand that all my hon. Friends have received a fax this afternoon from the National Farmers Union. Its case is that this is an unreasonable economy on the part of the Government and it rejects it.
§ Mr. Nick Ainger (Pembroke)I represent a constituency which, like that of the hon. Member for North Cornwall (Mr. Tyler), is a high rainfall area. The impact of any heavy periods of rain in a high rainfall area exacerbates the problems that farmers have in controlling the slurry that my hon. Friend the Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours) has so eloquently described in all its enormity. I should hate to say that it was a load of crap, but basically that is what we are talking about—a large load of crap.
One of the disappointing features of this matter, which is certainly reflected in the communications that we have received from the National Farmers Union, is that the scheme that the Government are trying to dismantle almost lock, stock and barrel has been so successful. Perhaps if the Minister replies to the debate, which I hope that he will, he will touch on the fact that the scheme is basically self-regulating. As farmers make the investment and the work is completed, there is no further call by them on any central grant system. As the improvements take place, the grant required slowly but surely reduces except perhaps in areas where we have new entrants into the 896 dairy industry. Sadly, new entrants are few and far between, but they may wish to take up the opportunity to make the improvements, particularly as it is difficult to make capital investment when one is starting out and as there is great instability in the dairy industry at present.
Another issue could perhaps increase the loads to which my hon. Friend the Member for Workington referred in Britain. There is a possibility—I put it no stronger than that—that with the public outcry against the export of veal calves we may see a change in legislation that would bring about an increase in the British veal industry. I hope that we do, but that would only add to the problem that the British agricultural industry currently faces.
As other hon. Members have said, the grants are basically for environmental purposes. They do not directly assist the farming industry or improve its profitability. My area is not only a great dairy livestock area but an important tourist area. We are seeing the development of more eco-tourism and activity-based holidays, including both coarse and fly fishing. The cleanliness of our rivers is vital. We know what impact a spillage of nutrient-rich slurry can have on a waterway. It devastates it.
What advice, if any, has the Minister received from the National Rivers Authority on what impact the ending of the grants will have on the quality of our rivers and the level of fish in them? A slurry tank can spill over purely as a result of a sudden enormous downpour in a thunderstorm. It is literally an act of God. A whole river can be devastated. It takes a long time to restock a river with fish.
The Preseli area of my constituency is now an environmentally sensitive area. There is a possibility that farmers in such areas will continue to receive some form of grant aid. Designation as an ESA is an arbitrary way of deciding which areas should receive assistance. The rainfall on one side of the border of the ESA is exactly the same as on the other side. Whether the cows winter for four or five months indoors or not, they produce the same volume of slurry in Preseli as in South Pembrokeshire, Ceredigion or wherever.
Ceredigion and South Pembrokeshire are not designated as environmentally sensitive, yet they have exactly the same problems. It is arbitrary to use designation as a nitrate-vulnerable zone or environmentally sensitive area as the means of determining which areas qualify for grant aid.
As you will be aware, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the British public want their environment and particularly rivers and the sea to be as clean as possible. A great deal of pressure has been brought to bear on the authorities to upgrade the human sewage discharges into our environment. Yet here we have the Government in the face of this enormous problem—the figures have been quoted to us, and it is the equivalent of the sewage of millions of people—saying that they will in only a few odd areas assist the environment by providing grant aid and the relatively small amounts of money needed to ensure that we have no serious accidents.
Great pressure has been brought to bear on the water companies by the regulators and the European Union to improve sewage discharges. Sadly, it is not the whole nation that is contributing to the clean-up. The poor old water customers, particularly in the south-west of England, face massive bills to clean up sewage discharges. The Government's action seems to fly in the face of public opinion on other forms of environmental pollution. I urge the Minister to reconsider.
§ Mr. JackThis has been a useful debate. I thank hon. Members on both sides of the House for their praise and support for what the scheme has achieved. Expenditure of some £150 million on encouraging 11,500 farmers to improve their waste disposal practices is a significant achievement. With respect to the hon. Members for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours) and for Pembroke (Mr. Ainger), in their graphic description of the rising tide, as they put it, of farm waste— [Interruption.]—even in the book which the hon. Member for Workington waves at me—there was perhaps a lack of appreciation of one of the fundamentals of good agricultural practice. All that waste is not bad. It is the way in which it is used that causes the problem.
Through the scheme we have encouraged farmers with good practice to control the use of that waste and prevent it from finding its way into the watercourses. All hon. Members rightly adverted to that as a problem. It is right that part of the advice on good agricultural practice, which will continue to be available free of charge from ADAS, notes that it is possible to make proper agricultural use of waste.
§ Mr. Aingerrose—
§ Mr. JackLet me answer the questions that have been raised before more are put to me. The hon. Gentleman asked about the National Rivers Authority. The NRA would be the first to admit that we have made progress. It also knows that we have not abandoned ship over the problem. We are concentrating our efforts on nitrate-vulnerable zones. We will continue to allow £2 million for research and development, and to deal with farm waste handling systems and acknowledge our responsibilities in that area.
§ Mr. AingerThe Minister did not appreciate my argument and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours). We are not saying that the industry needs advice on how to use slurry. The grants were to enable it to be collected safely so that it did not pollute waterways. Farmers fully appreciate the advantages of slurry— less need for artificial fertilisers, for example— and want to collect it safely, which is why they need the grant. They do not need advice on how to use it.
§ Mr. JackWith respect, I pointed out that we spent three times as much as we set out to do—£150 million of public money—to encourage farmers to pursue what should be their responsibility, as good husbanders of the land, not to pollute. All hon. Members will understand the principle that the polluter pays. We have been paying to help potential polluters not to pollute.
The hon. Member for Workington should remember that, on the other side of the equation, fines of up to £20,000 can be imposed if people do not fulfil their responsibility not to pollute.
§ Mr. TylerThe Minister referred briefly to advice from the National Rivers Authority and I hope that he will expand on it. I understand that it believes that only a comparatively small proportion of the work that needs to 898 be done on farms—on dairy holdings in particular, but also on beef holdings—has been done. It does not believe that the danger will be restricted to nitrate-vulnerable zones, but that it is much more widespread. The less well-equipped and financed farms will find it difficult. What advice has he received from the NRA on those three matters?
§ Mr. JackI hope that I will not be guilty of misleading the House, but I have not received any advice from the NRA. It might have sent us some thoughts, but I do not know without examining the correspondence files in detail, and I hope that hon. Members will accept that as an honest statement from the Dispatch Box.
The National Rivers Authority may continue to underscore the importance of preventing pollution, which it polices. We genuinely think that we have played our part, in the way that I described, in achieving better control of pollution. We have not walked away from our responsibilities—the advice, good practice and research and development are all still there. We understand the problem.
§ Mr. Aingerrose—
§ Mr. JackI must press on. My hon. Friend the Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Clifton-Brown) informed me that he could not be in his place for my closing speech. I understand that he is meeting some farmers. He emphasised the importance of the role of small farmers in these matters. The measures were designed for the small farmer and that support remains for plans that have already been approved. Many small farmers will have benefited from part of the £150 million that we spent and many in the nitrate-vulnerable zones will continue to be able to benefit.
As I said in my opening speech, part of the package of measures that my right hon. Friend the Minister said would form part of the Ministry's future programme will offer support in those difficult rural areas. As the hon. Member for North Cornwall (Mr. Tyler) will understand, under objective 5b assistance, we are able to use resources to strengthen the rural economy and opportunities for new forms of economic activity in such areas—the hon. Member for Pembroke mentioned farm holidays. That is one way in which our resources can help the farmers whom my hon. Friend the Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury mentioned.
Farmers have had five years to take advantage of the scheme and have been aware of many of the important messages on pollution. The fact that 11,500 have taken advantage of it is a clear sign of its success.
The hon. Member for Glanford and Scunthorpe (Mr. Morley) asked several questions and I hope that he will have noted from my remarks that ADAS will remain in place and will continue to offer advice. I also told him about some of the plus points, such as the way in which we managed to redistribute our resources. I do not want this debate to be quite as rumbustious as that of last night, but the hon. Gentleman did not commit his party to restoring the money, or tell us whether it would consider any scheme if, God forbid, it were ever to form a Government. He criticised us for examining our priorities and deciding that, if we had achieved our objectives, the time was right to move on to other schemes—I demonstrated that we had done so when I mentioned the reduction in pollution incidents. He would live in a world 899 where all schemes stayed in place for ever and a day, and we would never have the resources to find new opportunities to assist the farming industry.
§ Mr. Campbell-Savoursrose—
§ Mr. Campbell-SavoursMay I ask a simple question? If during the next few years after the scheme has ended, it is reported to Ministers that farmers are not complying and are expressing their difficulties to the enforcement authorities—perhaps telling them that they cannot afford to install the equipment—and that there has been a decline in standards, will they review the position?
§ Mr. JackI am sure that the hon. Gentleman would not expect me to trap myself or my right hon. Friends with a commitment on future expenditure.
§ Mr. AingerThe hon. Gentleman asked my hon. Friend the Member for Glanford and Scunthorpe (Mr. Morley) to do so.
§ Mr. JackHear me out. We are committed—[Interruption.] I want to tell the House what we are committed to spending our money on. We are committed to providing information to farmers and we will continue to monitor the number of pollution incidents—the Conservatives are sensible and flexible on such matters—and will obviously keep them under review.
On wider developments in the environment, the hon. Member for Glanford and Scunthorpe asked me how it would all fit together. The new environment agency will combine the NRA and Her Majesty's inspectorate of pollution. As the hon. Member for North Cornwall said, the NRA has a keen interest in and will continue to take responsibility for pollution as part of the new agency. The inspectorate has a role, but it will be concentrated on large industry and not on agriculture. It will be up to us to monitor and listen to what the NRA and others have to say.
Clearly, the grants programme was a response to a high level of pollution and we have shown that, when there is a problem, we are prepared to act.
The hon. Member for Glanford and Scunthorpe asked several more questions. Help with farm waste systems will still be available. When the nitrate-vulnerable zones are defined, we will have a clear idea of the type of help and scheme that will be required. He will be aware that the consultation process and the consideration of representations is continuing. We are listening and talking carefully to farmers. They will have another opportunity to comment on the revised areas. Once we have all that information, we will know what type of scheme will be necessary. Resources will be provided to assist farmers facing difficulties in those areas.
I thank all hon. Members who contributed to the debate. I shall reflect carefully on what they said and I commend the order to the House.
§ Question put and agreed to.
§
Resolved,
That the Farm and Conservation Grant (Variation) (No. 2) Scheme 1994 (S.I., 1994, No. 3002), dated 25th November 1994, a copy of which was laid before this House on 29th November, be approved.