HC Deb 12 January 1995 vol 252 cc266-8
5. Ms Quin

To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what proposals his Department has concerning British constitutional reforms.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Nicholas Baker)

We have no current plans for constitutional reform in Great Britain. We believe that our present constitutional arrangements serve their respective purposes well.

Ms Quin

Does the Minister realise that there is deep public concern about the centralised quango-ridden system operated by the Government, and that by turning their face against any democratic reform the Government will win no friends? Would the Minister care to meet members of the Campaign for a Northern Assembly or members of the North of England Assembly of Local Authorities, both of which believe that regional government will not only be democratic and bring greater subsidiarity, but will help to bring about economic recovery and economic development in regions such as the north?

Mr. Baker

The Government do not believe that constitutional reforms are either needed or wanted by the majority of the British people. As to the hon. Lady's suggestions about regional devolved government, those are matters for my right hon. Friends the Secretaries of State for Scotland and for Wales—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."] We take a very different view from that which has led to the proposals for regional government being put forward by the Opposition, which are based on the needs of the Labour party and would lead to the devaluation and subversion of the authority of the Palace of Westminster and the break-up of the United Kingdom: as my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has said—teenage madness.

Dame Angela Rumbold

Does my hon. Friend agree that Britain already has sufficient in the way of local government and bodies which represent people at local level and that the only constitutional reform that is required in a country of this size—quite small—is to have rather more local local government and not to indulge in regional government and other constitutional reform which would inevitably result in nothing but further expense for the poor British taxpayer?

Mr. Baker

My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. The devolution proposals put forward by the Labour party are, in the words of The Guardian, which is no supporter of the Government, an earthquake set to ripple through the land.

Mr. William Ross

Will the Minister give an assurance that, whatever constitutional positions may be arrived at throughout the United Kingdom, the authority will lie totally within the competence of the House?

Mr. Baker

I can certainly agree with and give the answer yes to that question.

Sir Fergus Montgomery

If we had devolution in Scotland and Wales, regional assemblies in England and a tax on the monarchy, would that not destroy the United Kingdom as we know it today?

Mr. Baker

Yes.

Mr. Salmond

Is not the Prime Minister, in his claim that the Union is the best possible arrangement, beginning to resemble the boy on the burning deck? What evidence does the Minister have for his claim that the majority of people in Scotland do not want constitutional change? Does he understand why there is such substantial irritation in Scotland and Wales with a Prime Minister who claims that this place knows better how to run those nations than the people of Scotland and Wales?

Mr. Baker

These are matters for Parliament. Scotland is a matter for the Secretary of State for Scotland. I concur with my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, who described this as a most dangerous proposal and the most dangerous proposition to be put before the British nation.

Sir Donald Thompson

Is my hon. Friend aware that the committee of the Council of Europe that deals with regional matters, which proposes the establishment of a regional assembly in Strasbourg, agreed on Monday that the current arrangements for the United Kingdom fit well into the pattern of regional government throughout Europe?

Mr. Baker

I agree with what my hon. Friend has said.

Mr. Beith

How can the Minister claim that Home Office Ministers are against all constitutional change when the Home Secretary is the biggest constitutional innovator around? Was it not he who sought to centralise control of police authorities, but was stopped by the other place? Was it not he who sought central control of the administration of the courts, and is it not he who is trying to rewrite the doctrine of ministerial responsibility so that Ministers are merely accountable—not responsible—for matters for which even "Questions of Procedure for Ministers" states that they are responsible?

Mr. Baker

My colleagues and I entirely reject that suggestion from a Member of Parliament who proposes a federal union in Europe which would have precisely the opposite effect.

Mr. Batiste

Is not the real motive of those who argue for regional government in England connected with the fact that they are afraid to face up to the consequences of the West Lothian question? Is that not a very bad reason to mess about with English local government—just to retain extra seats for Scottish Members of Parliament?

Mr. Baker

My hon. Friend is entirely right. Opposition Members have given no answer to the West Lothian question either before or now.

Mr. Straw

May I invite the Minister to agree with the following words? The words decentralisation to the provinces of England would result in local communities recovering a large measure of the responsibilities they have lost in so many spheres. were the exact words that the Home Secretary's predecessor, now Chancellor of the Exchequer, used in a Bow Group pamphlet that he wrote recommending elected regional councils. [HON. MEMBERS: "When?"] It was after he had been chosen as a prospective parliamentary candidate—[Interruption.] Conservative Members are now revealing a further constitutional novelty: nothing that people say before elections should be followed after they have been elected. As a responsible adult and a prospective Conservative candidate, the right hon. and learned Gentleman wrote a pamphlet backing elected regional councils all over England. He was right then, and the Government are wrong now.

Mr. Baker

If the hon. Gentleman wants to be taken seriously, he will have to do better than dredge up 20-year-old quotations.

Mr. Harry Greenway

Does my hon. Friend agree that the people of London give thanks every day for the ending some years ago of the unlamented, overspending, bureaucratic, wasteful Greater London council and do not want anything like it again, either in London or in the rest of the country?

Mr. Baker

My hon. Friend is absolutely right.