Framework Document (Hansard, 16 February 1995)

§ 4. Mr. Beith
To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will make a statement about 1119 the progress made towards the publication of a framework document and of the Government's proposals for the internal administration of Northern Ireland.

§ 8. Mr. Skinner
To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what further discussions he has had with representatives of political parties regarding the framework document; and if he will make a statement.

§ Mr. Ancram
We hope to publish the joint framework document and the Government's proposals for the internal administration of Northern Ireland as soon as possible. In the course of discussions with the main constitutional parties in Northern Ireland, I have discussed the principles that we would expect to underpin a settlement relating to all three sets of relationships.

§ Mr. Beith
Will the Minister state the process by which these documents will fall to be considered by the Northern Ireland political parties? Would it not be hard for people in Great Britain to understand if any of Northern Ireland's political leaders declined to take part in the process of discussion and denied the people of Northern Ireland the opportunity to vote for or against a considered set of proposals?

§ Mr. Ancram
Having heard what the right hon. Gentleman said, I should remind him that any referendum would be not on a set of proposals produced by the two Governments but on the outcome of discussions that take place on the basis, as my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State said, of the joint framework document and other views expressed by other interested parties.
Obviously, the process after publication will have to be considered in the light of circumstances. We have made it clear that the document will be published along with the Government's proposals for discussion on internal institutions within Northern Ireland. The proposals will be public and we hope that, first, all concerned will study them with great care and attention to see precisely what is in them. I hope that we can then begin discussions on the basis of those proposals and, as I have said, possibly on the basis of other positions that may become available at the time.
In the first place, there may be bilateral discussions; but, at the end of the day, discussions must be around a table, because the whole purpose of the process is to try to come to an agreement between the parties which can then be put to the people of Northern Ireland in a referendum.

§ Madam Speaker
I call Mr. Skinner.

§ Mr. Skinner
My question is coupled with Question 5.

§ Madam Speaker
It is my understanding that Questions 4 and 8 are linked.

§ Mr. Ancram
I received a note at the beginning of Question Time informing me that one question had been withdrawn and the questions had been renumbered. I may be wrong.

§ Madam Speaker
No. The linked questions are the questions tabled by the right hon. Member for 1120 Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith) and by the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner)—Nos. 4 and 8—which relate to the framework document.

§ Mr. Ancram
I apologise; I was wrongly informed.

§ Mr. Skinner
I had a letter saying that my question was linked with Question 8. Then again, the Government do not know whether they are on their head or their backside.

§ Madam Speaker
Questions 4 and 8 are linked.

§ Mr. Skinner
Is the Minister aware that if ever there was a need for the framework document and a peaceful Irish solution, it was best exemplified by the horrific events at Lansdowne Road last night? Does he also agree that, for the matter to be resolved in the long term, we shall need a Government with a large majority and not a Government who have to depend on temporary pacts and alliances, with support being withdrawn week by week? Long-term resolution of the problem will probably need a Labour Government with a new idea.

§ Mr. Ancram
I can only say that, in the light of the present situation, with the future of Northern Ireland very much at the centre of what we should be considering, I do not think that the hon. Gentleman's remarks are exactly constructive or helpful.

§ Mr. Barry Porter
Although I am very willing to wait for the publication of that document, it is important to point out to my hon. Friend that that which has seeped out so far, whether intentionally or unintentionally, has given some Conservative Members room for concern. If, indeed, that which has seeped out is what will be in that document, it may well be that some Members who would describe themselves as Unionists will take a less than sanguine view of the contents.

§ Mr. Ancram
May I advise my hon. Friend, as I have advised others, that I think that it is important to wait to see precisely what is in the joint framework document, if a joint framework document is agreed? Equally, I would ask him to wait to look at precisely what is in the Government's own proposals on internal institutions to see whether they match the criteria that he would seek for such institutions.
As part of the consultations that I have held with all the parties, I was seeking out the parameters in which I believed that we could find a basis for discussion and negotiation, and there were certain very firm criteria which had to be met: first, that no joint authority of Dublin and the United Kingdom Government was involved; secondly, that there was no joint sovereignty; and, thirdly, that there was no slippery slope in anything that was proposed. I believe that, when my hon. Friend sees the proposals, he will agree that we are firmly within those criteria.

§ Mr. William Ross
Why, whenever Ministers speak of the framework document and the peace process, do they roll the two together? It is an absolutely fundamental error to talk about two separate things as though they were one and the same. In so doing, they leave themselves open to pressure from the IRA under the threat of resumed violence if they do not give the IRA what it wants.

§ Mr. Ancram
I do not think that the hon. Gentleman is correct. Certainly, I do not think that he should draw 1121 that inference from anything that I have said in answer to this question. What I was saying, which is very important, is that the joint framework document is two legs of a three-legged stool. The third leg of that stool is the Government's proposals for the internal arrangements within Northern Ireland. It is very important that that package is looked at as a whole. I hope that Unionist Members, who have always struck me as people of great reason—I believe that to be the case—will do that.

§ Mr. Mallon
As we await the framework document, is it not informative to remind ourselves of what Edward Heath, Margaret Thatcher and John Major have in common? They have all gone ahead of the Unionists, they say; they have all sold out Unionism, they say; and they have all tried to create a united Ireland against the wishes of the people of the north of Ireland, would that it were so. Will the Minister confirm that underlying the framework document will be the principle of consent, that consent by definition requires agreement and that agreement by definition threatens no one except those who get undue pleasure out of threatening and being threatened?

§ Mr. Ancram
I personally do not think that the process in which we are engaged is to be assisted by anybody threatening anybody else. The process, as the hon. Gentleman rightly pointed out, is based on consent, and consent requires agreement; but in order to achieve agreement, there has to be dialogue. The purpose of the joint framework document and the document being put forward by the Government on internal arrangements within Northern Ireland has one central purpose: to get the parties back talking to each other again, as the people of Northern Ireland are constantly demanding that the Governments and their elected representatives should do.