HC Deb 14 February 1995 vol 254 cc787-8
8. Ms Corston

To ask the Secretary of State for Health what has been the total combined cost of establishing trust hospitals during the period 1991 to 1994.

Mr. Malone

This information is not held centrally. However, a total of £109,436,000 was made available by the Department of Health to regional health authorities towards the consultation costs, start-up costs and conveyancing costs incurred by units applying for trust status during the period 1991–94.

Ms Corston

It is interesting that the Minister has not taken this opportunity to confirm figures released by his Department in December which show that the cost of setting up the trusts in England alone was £103 million. That must be added to the £1 billion wasted over the past five years on providing extra administration and bureaucracy. Is it not true that all that money could have been spent on treating every one of the 1,071,000 people currently on waiting lists?

Mr. Malone

I must refute entirely what the hon. Lady says. This is a worthwhile investment in bringing about a substantial change in a structure which now delivers more health care than ever before. Reforming institutions so that they spend properly and sensibly is no different from building another unit to treat people. The truth is that trust hospitals have been a huge success. There are now 419 across the country and nearly every unit will be a trust after the fifth wave has gone through. Although the right hon. Member for Derby, South (Mrs. Beckett) continues to refer to trusts as some kind of abomination, it is remarkable that there is no sign that the Labour party intends to do anything to reverse the process.

Dame Jill Knight

Is it not true that since hospitals became trusts far more people have been treated with more complicated operations and treatment so that any cost involved is money well spent? Is my hon. Friend aware of the concern being expressed by patients about the Labour party's threat to get rid of trusts, which would inevitably reduce the opportunities for treatment?

Mr. Malone

My hon. Friend is right. It is intriguing that, although the right hon. Member for Derby, South refers to trusts as abominations, she does not intend to do anything about them. I heard the sedentary remark made by the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) who, according to "Breakfast with Frost", clearly has more than one finger in the pie of Labour party policy. He said that there is a hidden agenda, so perhaps the right hon. Lady is about to find out. Trusts have outperformed all other hospitals in increasing the number of patients treated; as a result, we are now treating 122 patients for every 100 treated in 1990.

Mrs. Beckett

Is the Minister aware that this is only one example of the widespread concern about whether costs in the health service changes are accurately assessed and, much more to the point, about whether the money is being properly directed, whether we are talking about the establishment, merger or even closure of trusts? Is he aware, for example, of the great concern felt in London about the proposals to close Bart's hospital, the consultation period for which is shortly to come to an end? The Minister said a moment ago that the money spent was a worthwhile investment in substantial changes. Does he not recognise that most people see this as just another example of public money being used to turn a good public service into an expensive private business in which the people at the top rake it in, the people at the bottom are exploited and the taxpayer pays more and gets less?

Mr. Malone

The public who are now spending less time on waiting lists and passing through trust hospitals in greater volumes than ever before have reason to be grateful for these investments. I should also point out to the right hon. Lady that the scale of costs of starting up trusts is relatively small. For example, the cost of setting up the Homerton hospital trust was some £215,000 over quite a lengthy period and covering quite a number of functions which would probably have been undertaken over time by the previous hospital. It is a pretty small amount and an extremely good investment, and there is improved health care to show for it across the nation.